- TONIGHT A CONVERSATION WITH NOTED EDUCATION AND BUSINESS LEADER DR. LANZE THOMPSON.

- GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES, YOU KNOW.

HE'S MADE PEOPLE BLACK, WHITE, ASIAN, MIDDLE EASTERN, CHINESE.

ALL OF US COME FROM THE SAME CREATOR.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- SO YOU HAVE TO SEE US ALL AS BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

- ABSOLUTELY.

- AND ONCE YOU DO THAT, MOST OF TIMES YOU WANT FOR YOUR BROTHER AND YOUR SISTER SOMETIMES WHAT YOU AT LEAST WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOURSELF, IF NOT MORE.

- CLARK ATLANTA UNIVERSITY'S DR. LANZE THOMPSON COMING UP RIGHT NOW.

- [ANNOUNCER] "LOVE & RESPECT" WITH KILLER MIKE IS MADE POSSIBLE BY... - REGINA APPROACHES THE ALL-ELECTRIC CADILLAC LYRIQ.

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♪♪ - ALL RIGHT, DR. LANZE THOMPSON.

THANK YOU FOR COMING AND APPEARING ON "LOVE AND RESPECT."

IT'S AMAZING THAT YOU HERE.

I HAVE NOT READ THE WHOLE BOOK YET, BUT YOU HAVE A BOOK CALLED "BLACK WOUNDS, "THE PAINS, SCARS AND TRIUMPHS OF BLACK AMERICA."

WE'RE GONNA TALK SOME ABOUT THIS BOOK AND YOUR NOT WANTING TO WRITE IT FOR A WHILE, BUT HAVING TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE IT WAS NECESSARY AND YOU DID IT.

SO THANK YOU FOR THAT.

- WELL, AND FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

I'M A BIG FAN OF YOURS, SO.

- ABSOLUTELY.

- APPRECIATE EVERYTHING YOU'RE DOING FOR THE COMMUNITY.

- SO WHAT I, DO I CALL YOU DOC?

DO I CALL YOU DR. THOMPSON?

DO I CALL YOU LANZE?

WHAT A, WHAT A?

- WELL, MY MOTHER KEEPS ME GROUNDED AND WHAT SHE WOULD SAY, "YOU'RE ALWAYS GONNA BE LANZE TO ME."

- SO - OKAY, COOL.

- SO PEOPLE THAT KNOW ME AND ARE CLOSE TO ME, THAT'S WHO I AM.

- WELL, I APPRECIATE IT.

AND WITH RESPECT TO THE AMOUNT OF WORK YOU HAD TO PUT IN TO BECOME DR. LANZE THOMPSON, I ALWAYS HAVE TO ASK IT.

SPEAKING OF THE AMOUNT OF WORK, I WENT TO FREDERICK DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL.

FREDERICK DOUGLAS IS ONE OF THE, IN MY OPINION, ONE OF THE TOP THREE AMERICANS EVER TO HAVE GRACED THE WORLD STAGE AND REPRESENTED THIS COUNTRY.

ONE OF THE OTHERS IS DR. KING.

- MM-HMM (AFFIRMATIVE).

- SO JUST PICK A RANDOM WHITE GUY, THROW IT AS THE THIRD ONE AND THE WHITE WON'T SING.

(DR. THOMPSON LAUGHING) BUT ALL TEASING ASIDE, HE SAID SEVERAL QUOTES THAT HAVE RADICALLY, YOU KNOW, CHANGED MY LIFE.

EVERY DAY WE WOULD GO INTO SCHOOL.

WE WOULD SEE, "WITHOUT WORK ETHIC, THERE WILL BE NO PROGRESS."

SO WE KNEW WE HAD TO.

"WITHOUT STRUGGLE," I'M SORRY.

"WITHOUT STRUGGLE, THERE'S NO PROGRESS."

SO WE KNEW WE WERE GONNA HAVE TO WORK HARD.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

ANOTHER, WE KNEW AS KIDS WERE, "IT IS EASIER TO BUILD STRONG CHILDREN "THAN IT IS TO REPAIR BROKEN MEN."

AND A THIRD FAVORITE QUOTE OF MINE, AND IT STARTS OUR INTERVIEW, WAS, "KNOWLEDGE MAKES YOU UNFIT TO BE A SLAVE."

- [DR. THOMPSON] MM-HMM (AFFIRMATIVE).

- SO EDUCATION MEANT A LOT TO ME MY ENTIRE LIFE.

AND YOU WERE BORN AND RAISED IN BOSTON.

YOU'RE THE SECOND OF NINE KIDS.

WHAT DID FOCUSING ON EDUCATION EARLY IN YOUR YEARS DO FOR YOU TO ESCAPE POVERTY?

- YEAH.

SO EDUCATION WAS DRILLED IN ME AT A VERY EARLY AGE AS BEING VERY IMPORTANT.

AND IT WAS WAS DRILLED INTO ME BY MY MOTHER WHO ONLY HAD AN EIGHTH-GRADE EDUCATION.

BUT SHE REALLY STRESSED FORMAL EDUCATION AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO GET OUT OF, YOU KNOW, WE GREW UP IN THE HOUSING PROJECTS, AS AN EVERYONE AND AN OPPORTUNITY.

- [MIKE] WHAT WAS HER NAME?

- MY MOTHER'S NAME WAS MICHELLE THOMPSON.

- [MIKE] MICHELLE THOMPSON.

- MICHELLE THOMPSON.

- MISS MICHELLE IS PROBABLY WHAT THE COMMUNITY KNEW HER AS.

- OH, SHE WAS EVERYONE'S MOM.

- ABSOLUTELY.

SO THAT'S AMAZING THAT WE CAN BE IN THESE COMMUNITIES WHERE EDUCATION IN TERMS OF THE PEOPLE WHO PRECEDE US MAY NOT BE THE HIGHEST, BUT THEY CAN INSPIRE SOMEONE, WHO IT SEEMS THAT HIGH SCHOOL WAS PRETTY EASY TO YOU 'CAUSE YOU WERE VALEDICTORIAN, CORRECT?

- [DR. THOMPSON] - MM-HMM.

- [MIKE] YOU WERE VALEDICTORIAN AND THEN YOU GO INTO COLLEGE AND YOU DON'T DO AS WELL YOUR FIRST YEAR, RIGHT?

- RIGHT.

- WHAT DID THAT FEEL LIKE FROM A...

I KNOW I'M A GOOD STUDENT, I KNOW I CAN DO IT?

WHAT DID THAT DO TO YOUR EGO IN TERMS OF DID IT BRUISE IT?

DID IT MAKE YOU WANT MORE?

- WELL, YOU KNOW, IT DID.

I WENT THROUGH DIFFERENT PHASES.

AT FIRST, IT WAS A SENSE OF A DOUBT THAT, YOU KNOW, DO I REALLY BELONG HERE?

- MM-HMM.

- BUT EVEN BEFORE THAT WAS A SENSE OF DISAPPOINTMENT, YOU KNOW, DISAPPOINTING MY MOTHER, AS I SAID, THIS WAS ALWAYS VERY IMPORTANT TO HER.

BUT IT TRANSITIONED FROM BEING VERY IMPORTANT FOR HER TO NOW BEING VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

THEN IT BECAME A SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT PROJECT TOUGHNESS KICKED IN, WHAT SHE HAD BEEN BUILDING INTO ME ALL MY LIFE.

THAT, YOU KNOW, ROLL UP YOUR SLEEVES AND TIME TO GET TO WORK.

- SO THE DEFEAT CAME AT WHAT SCHOOL?

- AT COLBY COLLEGE.

- AT COLBY COLLEGE.

- YEAH, AND SO.

- IT WAS A GOOD SCHOOL.

- OH, COLBY COLLEGE.

YEAH, VERY GOOD SCHOOL.

AND MATTER FACT, VERY WELL KNOWN FOR ECONOMICS, WHICH IS HOW I GOT INTO ECONOMICS.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- BUT, YOU KNOW, AT THE TIME COLBY COLLEGE, THEY WERE TRYING TO, BACK WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, A LOT OF SCHOOLS WERE NOW TRYING TO DIVERSIFY THEIR STUDENT BODY.

BUT I THINK, THEY GOT THE DIVERSITY PART RIGHT.

SO THEY BROUGHT MYSELF IN AND SOME OTHER BLACKS AND SOME STUDENTS FROM SOUTH, FROM AFRICA I SHOULD SAY.

SO WE DIVERSIFIED THE STUDENT BODY A LITTLE BIT.

YOU KNOW, PROBABLY ABOUT 1,800 STUDENTS TO ABOUT 10 TO 12 BLACKS IN THERE.

BUT WHAT I DON'T THINK IN HINDSIGHT, WHAT THEY GOT RIGHT OR UNDERSTOOD WAS TO PUT SOMEONE IN THE SITUATION, THAT'S ONLY THE BEGINNING.

- [MIKE] YES.

- I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY UNDERSTOOD HOW TO MAKE US FEEL WELCOME AND HOW TO MAKE US FEEL SUPPORTED THAT WE BELONGED.

I WAS IN A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE WERE WELCOMING ME IN OUT OF A SENSE OF MAYBE SOCIAL OBLIGATION.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- BUT THEY DIDN'T REALLY EMBRACE THE TRUE SPIRIT OF SEEING ME AS ONE OF THEIR OWN OR EQUAL TO THEM.

- YES.

- AND SO JUST NOT REALLY SURE WHAT TO DO WITH THAT OR HOW TO GROW FROM THAT.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- AND YOU START DOUBTING YOURSELF.

AM I IN THE RIGHT PLACE?

YOU KNOW, THIS WHERE I BELONG?

SHOULD I'VE GONE SOMEPLACE ELSE?

YOU KNOW, AM I REALLY WELCOME HERE?

AND, OF COURSE, YOU'RE GONNA BE YOUR OWN WORST ENEMY 'CAUSE YOU'RE GONNA BE MORE PARANOID AND YOUR MENTAL GAMES THAT YOU PLAY WITH YOURSELF.

- [MIKE] YES.

- ARE GONNA BE WORSE, AND PEOPLE WALKING BY THEY PROBABLY WEREN'T EVEN THINKING ABOUT ME.

- [MIKE] YEAH - BUT IN YOUR MIND, YOU'RE THINKING WHAT PEOPLE MIGHT BE THINKING.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- SO I THINK I SPENT TOO MUCH OF THAT GOING ON MY FIRST YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF.

- SO WHAT HAPPENS AFTER YOU DON'T DO WELL THE FIRST YEAR?

DO YOU STAY AT COLBY?

DO YOU GO TO ANOTHER SCHOOL?

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?

- WELL, I END UP GOING TO GRAMBLING STATE.

AND YOU KNOW, I- - FAMOUS COACH DOWN THERE.

- AT THE TIME, YEAH.

EDDIE ROBINSON.

- YES SIR.

- AND SO I WAS HEAVILY RECRUITED BY A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT SCHOOLS IN FOOTBALL, BUT INCLUDING GRAMBLING STATE, SO I COULD EASILY MAKE A PHONE CALL AND THEY WERE HAPPY TO HAVE ME COME DOWN.

- SO YOU'RE BRILLIANT AND YOU'RE ONE OF THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYERS POSSIBLY IN THE UNITED STATES 'CAUSE YOU GET A CALL FROM COACH, COACH EDDIE AT GRAMBLING STATE.

- WELL, HE HAD A LOT OF OTHER GOOD TALENT DOWN THERE AT THE TIME TOO, BUT I WAS JUST HAPPY TO BE IN THAT CONVERSATION - TO BE CONSIDERED.

- YES.

BUT IT GAVE ME OPTIONS WHERE I SAID, "OKAY, I DON'T HAVE TO STAY AT COLBY.

"I CAN GO OTHER PLACES WHERE THEY'LL BE WELCOMING TO ME."

AND SO HERE I GO FROM PROBABLY ONE OF THE WHITEST SCHOOLS IN AMERICA TO PROBABLY THE BLACKEST SCHOOL IN AMERICA, RIGHT?

BUT IT TURNED OUT THAT IT WASN'T THE FAIRY TALE ENDING.

- [MIKE] MM-HMM.

- BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH I HAD THE THINGS THAT I FELT WERE MISSING FROM COLBY, SUPPORT, PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME, PEOPLE WHO HAD SHARED BACKGROUNDS AND EXPERIENCES, I FELT LIKE I HAD WALKED AWAY FROM SOMETHING THAT I HAD STARTED.

- [MIKE] GOTCHA.

- AND THAT JUST DIDN'T SIT WELL WITH ME.

SO EVEN THOUGH GRAMBLING WAS VERY WELCOMING AND WARM TO ME AND HAD A PLACE FOR ME THERE, I WAS NOT SETTLED INSIDE MYSELF THAT THIS WAS A PLACE WHERE I COULD STAY AT, BECAUSE I HAD UNFINISHED BUSINESS BACK AT COLBY.

- YEAH, THAT'S AN AMAZING MINDSET TO HAVE WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT STARTING 19-, 20-YEARS-OLD, THAT'S AN AMAZING MINDSET.

WORD TO MISS MICHELLE.

SHE RAISED YOU RIGHT.

(DR. THOMPSON CHUCKLING) - THAT'S ALL MY MOTHER'S MINDSET.

- YEAH.

SO YOU GO BACK TO COLBY FROM GRAMBLING?

- I GO BACK TO COLBY.

SO FIRST I HAD TO GO, I WAS ON ACADEMIC PROBATION, SO I HAD TO GO DO CLASSES ELSEWHERE.

SO I WENT BACK TO BOSTON.

I DID MY CLASSES AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY.

- [MIKE] GOTCHA.

- AND I STARTED GETTING GRADES THAT WERE CONSISTENT WITH WHAT I GOT IN HIGH SCHOOL.

- SCHOLARSHIP.

- I STARTED GETTING MY CONFIDENCE BACK.

AND SO I WAS ABLE TO REAPPLY FOR COLBY TO GET BACK IN, SHOW THEM THE WORK THAT I HAD DONE, HOW I HAVE GROWN OVER THE YEARS.

- YEAH.

- AND I GOT BACK INTO COLBY AND ONCE I GOT BACK TO COLBY, I BECAME A DEAN'S LIST STUDENT FOR THE REST OF THE SEMESTERS.

- DOMINATOR.

I WOULD IMAGINE THAT.

YOU ALREADY A CONFIDENT BLACK KID, I CAN TELL.

I'D IMAGINE THAT GRAMBLING, YOU KNOW, NUDGED IT, YOU KNEW THERE ARE OTHER.

BUT GOING BACK TO COLLEGE, COMPLETING BOSTON UNIVERSITY AND THEN COMPLETING COLBY, PROBABLY PERFECTLY PREPPED YOU FOR WHAT WAS NEXT.

AND WHAT WAS NEXT WAS CORPORATE AMERICA.

- RIGHT.

- AND IN CORPORATE AMERICA, IT FELT LIKE YOU HAVE LIKE AN ALMOST A-SPOOK-THAT-SAT-BY-THE-DOOR EXISTENCE IN THAT YOU WERE THE ONLY BLACK MANAGER, OR THE ONLY BLACK VICE PRESIDENT.

WHAT WERE THE SPECIAL CHALLENGES THAT YOU FACED?

AND WHAT SKILLS HELPED YOU SUCCEED?

I WOULD IMAGINE THE COLBY EXPERIENCE HELPED YOU IN CORPORATE AMERICA.

- YEAH, IT REALLY DID.

THAT'S INTERESTING YOU MAKE THAT ANALOGY BECAUSE I REALLY DREW UPON MY EXPERIENCE AT COLBY.

IT REALLY HELPED ME UNDERSTAND THAT I'M GONNA BE IN ENVIRONMENTS WHERE PEOPLE DON'T LOOK LIKE ME, WHERE PEOPLE DON'T THINK LIKE ME, WHERE PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES AND OPINIONS AND DIFFERENT WAYS OF DOING THINGS AND SEEING THINGS OR TELL ME NO.

AND THE NO IS JUST A NO.

NOT A NO BECAUSE I'M BLACK AND NOT A NO BECAUSE MY WORK WAS INFERIOR.

JUST A NO BECAUSE THEY PREFER IT THIS WAY.

- [MIKE] MM-HMM - SO ALL THOSE THINGS, YOU KNOW, CAME INTO PLAY TO HELP ME HAVE A THICKER SKIN, A TOUGHER SKIN IN CORPORATE AMERICA.

AND, YOU KNOW, AS I'VE SAID, YOU KNOW, TALKED TO OTHER, CERTAINLY STUDENTS, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, WHICH IS THE NEW BUZZWORD, YOU KNOW, THE D, E, AND I, YOU KNOW, I REFLECT BACK AND I THINK THAT THE DIVERSITY PART, I THINK CORPORATIONS WERE REALLY WORKING VERY HARD AT.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

AND THEY WANTED PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF IN THE ROOM.

TO BE ON THE TEAM, RIGHT?

BUT THE EQUITY AND THE INCLUSION PART, I THINK WE STILL HAVEN'T GOTTEN THAT RIGHT.

- [MIKE] GOTCHA.

- SO TO MAKE ME FEEL AS EQUAL AS OTHER MANAGERS AND OTHER EXECUTIVES, WHO HAS A VOICE, WHO IS AS VALUED AS THEIRS, WHO HAS IDEAS THAT WILL BE TAKEN AS SERIOUSLY, WHO WILL BE GIVEN EQUAL PAY COMPARABLE TO WHAT SOME OF MY PEERS WERE GETTING.

WE'RE STILL STRUGGLING WITH THAT 30 YEARS LATER, AFTER MY INITIATION INTO CORPORATE AMERICA.

- ONCE YOU GOT IN THE CORPORATE ENVIRONMENT, AND YOU'RE THERE, YOU KNOW, POST COLBY, AND YOU SAY YOU WEREN'T GIVEN, WEREN'T TAUGHT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DIDN'T WALK YOU THROUGH.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO CORPORATIONS NOW?

IN TERMS, IF I PUT YOU OVER A CORPORATION, SAY, "WELL, WE WANNA START DIVERSITY.

WE SAW BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTING, AND WE THINK WE NEED YOU TO OVERSEE DIVERSITY.

- RIGHT.

- WHAT WOULD YOU DO BESIDES PUT MORE THAN ONE BLACK PERSON AT THE TABLE?

WOULD YOU HELP THEM UNDERSTAND THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF BLACK PEOPLE?

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

IF YOU WERE IN CHARGE OF DIVERSITY AT COMPANY A, B OR C?

- YEAH.

AND THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

FIRST OF ALL, AS YOU JUST SAID, JOKINGLY, BUT I WOULD INCLUDE MORE THAN ONE PERSON BECAUSE IT WOULD TAKE AWAY THE STIGMA OF THAT PERSON FEELING LIKE THEY'RE THE ONLY ONE.

YOU NOTICE WHEN YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE.

- [MIKE] YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

- IT JUST HAS THIS UNBELIEVABLE SENSE OF SILENT WEIGHT THAT'S ON YOU.

SO THAT'S ONE THING, JUST FULL INCLUSION BASED ON ABILITY.

- [MIKE] GOTCHA.

- SECONDLY, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THERE NEEDS TO BE AN ORIENTATION WHERE YOU BROUGHT INTO CORPORATE AMERICA AND YOU HAVE, EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN COLLEGE AND MAYBE IN SOME OTHER INTERNSHIPS THAT YOU'VE DONE UP TO THAT POINT, IT'S LIKE GOING FROM THE MINOR LEAGUE TO THE MAJORS, JUST MAKING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ARE HERE AS PART OF A COMMUNITY.

- [MIKE] YES.

- YOU'RE NOT HERE AS AN INDIVIDUAL.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- AND SO IT'S OKAY TO ASK FOR HELP.

IT'S OKAY TO BE PART OF A NETWORK THAT'S GOING TO HELP SUPPORT YOU AND GIVE YOU GOOD, CRITICAL FEEDBACK.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF NURTURING ENVIRONMENT, YOU CAN TAKE FEEDBACK MORE TO HEART THAT IS COMING FROM A GOOD PLACE.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- AND YOU'RE NOT SUSPICIOUS THAT IT'S COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO'S JUST TRYING TO UNDERMINE ME OR TRYING TO MAKE ME LOOK BAD.

- YOU HAVE 35 YEARS CORPORATE EXPERIENCE AND WORKING FOR THE TOP 100 COMPANIES, NOT THE FORTUNE 400, THE FORTUNE FOUR OR FIVE, THE FORTUNE 100.

SO YOU WERE ELITE AT WHAT YOU DID.

USUALLY YOU RESIGN, YOU GO PLAY GOLF OR TENNIS OR WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, AND YOU, OR YOU GO WORK AND PICK UP A CHECK FROM A MAJOR UNIVERSITY, A STATE UNIVERSITY.

YOU CHOSE TO LEAVE CORPORATE AMERICA TO GO INTO ACADEMIA.

AND SPECIFICALLY, HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES?

WHAT BROUGHT YOU TO CLARK?

WHAT MAKES YOU SAY, "THIS IS WHERE I PLANT MY FLAG POLE?"

"THIS IS WHERE I'M MOST NEEDED?"

- SO I DIDN'T EVEN GO TO AN HBCU, BUT WHEN THE OPPORTUNITY CAME ALONG, WHEN THEY WERE LOOKING FOR THEIR CFO, THE NEXT CFO, AND THEY WERE EXPLAINING TO ME ALL THE DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES I HAD IN CORPORATE AMERICA THAT WOULD BE VALUE ADDED TO A HBCU, SOMEONE WHO CAN APPRECIATE THE NONPROFIT MISSION OF THE UNIVERSITY, BUT BRING A PROFIT MENTALITY OF THE EFFICIENCY, KIND OF, YOU KNOW, DISCIPLINE TO THE UNIVERSITY.

SO THAT WAS INTRIGUING TO ME.

BUT WHAT WAS MOST IMPORTANT TO ME WAS THE STUDENTS.

YOU KNOW, I LOOKED AT THESE STUDENTS AND I SAID, THESE ARE STUDENTS WHO COME FROM BACKGROUNDS THAT I CAME FROM.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- WHO ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THEIR JOURNEY IN LIFE.

AND CERTAINLY IN THEIR CAREER, THAT I'VE NOW KIND OF COME TO THE END OF MINE.

AND SO IF I COULD GO BACK TO MY YOUNGER SELF AND HAD SOMEONE WHO HAD THIS KIND OF KNOWLEDGE, EXPERIENCE, INSIGHTS, VICTORIES AS WELL AS DEFEATS.

- [MIKE] YES.

- WHO COULD SHARE ALL THOSE THINGS WITH ME.

HOW VALUABLE WOULD THAT BE FOR ME?

IF I COULD REACH ONE STUDENT.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- ON THIS CAMPUS AND REALLY HELP THEM MAYBE FIND THEMSELVES, FIND THEIR VOICE, FIND THEIR CONFIDENCE, FIND THEMSELVES ON THE PATH OF WHAT THEIR PURPOSE IS IN LIFE, THAT'S GONNA RIPPLE EFFECT EVERYONE THEY INTERACT WITH FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE.

- ABSOLUTELY.

- BUT THIS JUST SEEMED LIKE IT WAS TRANSITIONING FROM PROFITING FOR ME PERSONALLY, TO CONTRIBUTING AND GIVING SOCIALLY AND TO A COMMUNITY.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- AND ONCE I GOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT TRANSITION, IT WAS JUST, THERE WAS NO COMPARISON TO THE VALUE THAT COULD BE ADDED HERE VERSUS, YOU KNOW, THE THINGS THAT I KIND OF LEFT BEHIND WHEN I LEFT CORPORATE.

- AND IN SPEAKING IN ECONOMICS, IT'S ALMOST, WELL IT IS AN INVESTMENT.

- [DR. THOMPSON] IT'S AN INVESTMENT.

- BECAUSE WHAT YOU GET ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THOSE FOUR YEARS OVER THE NEXT 20 YEARS, DEFINITELY FURTHER GROWS AND ACCRUES.

IT'S LIKE COMPOUND INTEREST.

- COMPOUND INTEREST.

SEE, YOU SURE YOU'RE NOT A FINANCE GUY?

- WELL, I MESSED AROUND AND RAPPED UNTIL I HAD TO UNDERSTAND MONEY OR THE IRS WAS GONNA TAKE IT ALL.

(DR. THOMPSON LAUGHING) - RIGHT.

- THIS BOOK, "BLACK WOUNDS, "THE PAINS, SCARS AND TRIUMPHS OF BLACK AMERICA."

THE TITLE'S HEAVY, MAN.

- YEAH.

- YOU KNOW, IT'S HEAVY.

- THIS WAS MEANT TO BE PROVOCATIVE.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- THIS WAS MEANT TO COME RIGHT AT YOU, RIP THE BANDAID OFF.

- SO YOU DIDN'T WANNA WRITE THIS.

AND FINALLY YOU SAID, "I GOTTA WRITE THIS."

SO WHAT DOES THE TERM BLACK WOUNDS MEAN TO YOU?

AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PAIN, SCARS AND TRIUMPHS.

- RIGHT.

- OF BLACK AMERICA.

- RIGHT.

SO I DIDN'T WANNA WRITE THIS BOOK BECAUSE I WAS HOPING IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO WRITE THE BOOK.

BUT A SHIFT CAME ABOUT WHEN I STARTED SEEING ONE CASE AFTER ANOTHER OF A BLACK PERSON EITHER KILLED IN THE STREET OR ABUSED IN THE STREET.

AND THAT'S WHERE I SAID, YOU KNOW, "I CAN'T TURN MY EYES AWAY FROM THAT."

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- WHILE I COULD SHAKE MY HEAD AND SAY, "YEAH, I WISH, YOU KNOW, WE ALL GOT EQUAL PAY.

"I WISH WE ALL HAD ALL EQUAL ACCESS "TO OPPORTUNITIES FOR PROMOTION."

AND I COULD SHAKE MY HEAD AND SAY, "OKAY, WELL, WE'LL COME BACK AT IT TOMORROW."

I COULD NOT SHAKE MY HEAD AND TURN AWAY FROM A YOUNG KID LYING IN THE STREET WHO WILL NEVER COME HOME TO THEIR MOTHER.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- A PERSON WHO WAS KILLED FOR DOING SOMETHING AS BENIGN AS GOING TO GET A SODA OR SKITTLES FROM THE STORE.

BUT SEEING ONE HIGH-PROFILE CASE AFTER ANOTHER OF THEM BEING, YOU KNOW, MEETING THIS KIND OF, THIS FATE, OF NOT EVEN GETTING THEIR DAY IN COURT, NOT EVEN GETTING THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, TO HEAR THEIR STORY.

AND IF THEY'RE GUILTY, THEN HERE'S WHAT THE JUSTICE SAYS THE CONSEQUENCES ARE, YOUR ACTIONS ARE.

BUT TO NOT EVEN MAKE IT TO THE CAR, NOT EVEN MAKE IT TO OFF THE SIDEWALK, NOT EVEN MAKE IT FROM THE FRONT OF THE STORE, YOU KNOW, TO THE POLICE CRUISER.

ONE SITUATION AFTER ANOTHER, THAT'S WHEN I SAID, "YOU KNOW WHAT?

"SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT IN THIS COUNTRY."

- [MIKE] YEAH.

AND I ALLOWED MYSELF TO FALL INTO A FALSE SENSE SECURITY WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS ELECTED, THINGS WERE CHANGING ABOVE THE SURFACE.

BUT LOOK AT ALL THIS GOING ON UNDER THE SURFACE.

RIGHT?

THESE THINGS WEREN'T CHANGING.

YOU KNOW, THE POLICING OF BLACK COMMUNITIES WERE.

THE DISCRIMINATION IN SCHOOL AND HOUSING, AND TRYING TO GET LOANS.

HEALTHCARE, YOU KNOW, ONE METRIC AFTER ANOTHER.

I WENT BACK AND LOOKED AND I SAID, "THESE THINGS HAVEN'T MOVED IN OVER 50, 60 YEARS."

- [MIKE] YEAH, FOR SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE LISTENING ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE LAW AND ORDER PEOPLE, TOO, THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT BLACKS AND WHITES SMOKE MARIJUANA AT THE SAME RATE, - [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- ABOUT 50-50, YET 84% OF MARIJUANA ARREST ARE BLACKS.

WHITES AREN'T BETTER AT HIDING THE SMELL OF MARIJUANA.

- NO.

- THEIR COMMUNITIES AREN'T BEING POLICED IN THE WAY.

STOP AND FRISK ISN'T BEING USED.

- STOP AND FRISK, WHICH GOES BACK TO THE SLAVE PATROLS.

- ABSOLUTELY.

- YOU KNOW, YOU HAD PERMISSION TO GO OFF YOUR PLANTATION.

SO A LOT OF THESE THINGS HAVE CARRIED FORWARD FROM.

- AND HAVE JUST HAVE BECOME A THING.

- AND THEY BECOME INSTITUTIONALIZED.

- YOU TALK ABOUT MORTGAGES.

WORLD WAR II, VETERANS CAME BACK AND BEYOND.

BLACKS AND WHITES THAT APPLY FOR THE SAME LOANS WITH THE SAME SEMANTICS, ESSENTIALLY BLACKS ARE TURNED DOWN 22%.

WHITES ONLY 8%.

- TURN TURNED DOWN 22% OR THOSE WHO ARE GIVEN A LOAN ARE AT A HIGHER RATE.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- AND HOW YOU'RE PAYING MORE.

- [MIKE] EXACTLY.

- AND THE REASON WHY THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WEALTH.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- THE SINGLE LARGEST OR MOST VALUABLE ASSET THAT MOST PEOPLE OWN IS YOUR HOME.

- [MIKE] HOME.

YEAH.

- AND SO IF I CAN'T EVEN OWN A HOME.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- THEN I CAN'T EVEN GET ON A PLATFORM OF BUILDING GENERATIONAL WEALTH.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- AND WEALTH THAT CAN THEN BE PASSED ON TO MY KIDS.

RIGHT?

AND SO YOU NEVER GET OUT OF THIS CYCLE OF NOT BUILDING WEALTH.

- THAT'S JUST SURVIVING.

- YOU'RE SURVIVING.

RIGHT?

AND SO EVERY TIME YOU'RE IN THE MODE OF SURVIVING, THEN YOU'RE NOT IN THE MODE OF THRIVING AND REACHING SELF ACTUALIZATION, BEING THE BEST THAT YOU CAN BE.

- SO I'M GONNA LINK THESE TWO TOGETHER.

SO WE DON'T HAVE VERY MUCH TIME, BUT THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, 'CAUSE ULTIMATELY I WANT TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

ULTIMATELY I THINK THAT WHAT BALDWIN ENCOURAGE AMERICANS TO DO IN FACING THE HARD TRUTH TOGETHER.

- [DR. THOMPSON] MM-HMM.

- AND THEN MOVING FORWARD AS AMERICANS TOGETHER, I THINK IS IMPORTANT.

I THINK IT'S A CRIME THAT WHITE CHILDREN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY DON'T KNOW CRISPUS ATTUCKS WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO DIE IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- [MIKE] BECAUSE IT FORCES YOUR PATRIOTISM TO BE DIFFERENT.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THAT.

I THINK IT IS A CRIME THAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW MANY INVENTIONS THAT WE USE TODAY.

EVEN FROM THE HEART TRANSPLANT TO ICE-MAKING MACHINES OR REFRIGERATION DEVICES, WERE MADE BY PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE YOU AND I.

SO YOU TEND TO THINK THAT THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LOOK LIKE YOU HAVEN'T DONE AS MUCH.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- AND YOU TEND TO THINK EVERY OTHER THING IS ACCREDITED TO YOU.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- YOU KNOW?

AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR.

I THINK THAT IN THE SOUTH GROWING UP, I NEVER PAID MUCH ATTENTION OR CARED ABOUT CONFEDERATE FLAG.

- [DR. THOMPSON] MM-HMM.

- BECAUSE THEY LOST.

- [DR. THOMPSON] YEAH.

- THEY WERE LOSERS.

THEY FOUGHT AGAINST THE UNION.

SHERMAN CAME THROUGH, BURNT EVERYTHING DOWN.

WE WERE PROMISED SOMETHING, ACCORDING TO FIELD ORDER 15, NEVER GOT IT.

BUT I NEVER WAS AFRAID.

- [DR. THOMPSON] YEAH.

- BUT I REMEMBER GOING TO A HIGH SCHOOL WHEN WE WERE IN CHORUS, AND THESE PEOPLE MAKING US WALK PAST THIS HUGE MURAL OF.

WE COULD HAVE WENT DIRECTLY TO THE TRAILERS WHERE WE WERE BEING HELD, BUT THEY MADE SURE WE WALKED PAST THAT CONFEDERATE FLAG.

- [DR. THOMPSON] YEAH.

- WE GET IN THERE AND WE ARE SHOOK.

YOU HEAR ME?

WE HAD FORGOT HOW TO SING.

WE DON'T KNOW NO STEVIE WONDER SONG.

WE DON'T KNOW THE JACKSON 5.

WHAT ARE WE TO DO?

MS. BISHOP CURSED US OUT LIKE A PIMP, TALKING TO US TO A LAZY WORKER.

(DR. THOMPSON CHUCKLING) AND SHE SAID, "I DON'T GIVE A. I'M GON' KILL YOU."

AND WE SANG OUR TAILS OFF.

WE WON A LOT OF AWARDS.

WE GOT ANNOUNCED AS THE WINNERS.

BUT THAT SYMBOL AT THAT TIME BEING SO YOUNG WAS STRIKING.

- [DR. THOMPSON] YEAH.

- AND I'D NEVER BEEN AFRAID.

I LIKED THE DUKES OF HAZARD, I HAD 'EM, FIT 'EM ON MY COWBOY HAT, YOU KNOW.

- [DR. THOMPSON] YEAH.

- BUT IT'S BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD IN THAT MOMENT, WHAT ALEXANDER STEPHENS SAID.

WHO STEPHENS COUNTY IS NAMED AFTER.

HE WAS VICE PRESIDENT OF THE CONFEDERACY.

THAT HE SAID SLAVERY WAS THE CORNERSTONE.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- OF THE CONFEDERACY.

- ABSOLUTELY.

- THE CORNERSTONE OF WHAT WE'VE BUILT, THIS INSTITUTION THE CONFEDERACY'S AROUND, IS BASED ON HUMAN BONDAGE AND THESE PEOPLE BEING BEAST AND BELOW US.

AND I UNDERSTOOD NOW IN THAT MOMENT, THAT'S WHAT I WAS EXPERIENCING.

THAT IT BEING USED AS A WEAPON OF TERROR.

BUT I'VE ALWAYS LOOKED AT IT.

AGAIN, CAUSE I'M FROM AN ALL-BLACK COMMUNITY, IT'S JUST BUNCH OF POOR WHITE FOLKS THAT LOST.

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- WHAT IS YOUR FEELING ON THE CONFEDERATE FLAG?

- THIS IS AMERICA, FOUNDED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF ALL MEN CREATED EQUAL.

AND YET WE FOUGHT A CIVIL WAR OF A GROUP WHO ARE TRAITORS.

- YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

COME ON, SAY IT, TALK.

- AND I'M VERY, THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE FOUGHT AGAINST THEIR COUNTRY.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- THEIR COUNTRY, MAN, THE CONSTITUTION OF THEIR GOVERNMENT.

- [MIKE] YEP.

- AND THEY LOST.

- [MIKE] THEY LOST.

- BUT YET THEY WERE ABLE TO MAINTAIN THEIR PROPERTY, THEIR WAY OF LIFE.

- [MIKE] YEP.

- THEIR VALUES, THEIR MORALS AND EVERYTHING, AND THOSE WHO THEY HAD INFLICTED THE MOST EGREGIOUS HARM AND PAIN ON, CERTAINLY IN THIS COUNTRY'S HISTORY.

WERE FORCED TO HAVE TO LIVE SIDE BY SIDE WITH THEM.

- YEAH.

- NEXT TO THE SYMBOL, AND SYMBOLS MATTER.

AND THESE THINGS, YOU KNOW, WE SAY, "WELL, IT'S JUST A SYMBOL."

AND AS A KID, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T KNOW THESE THINGS.

BUT AS AN ADULT, IN A SOCIETY, THAT FLAG STOOD FOR THOSE WHO WERE TRYING TO OPPRESS, WHO DID OPPRESS, MURDER, RAPE, DEHUMANIZE A WHOLE RACE OF PEOPLE.

- YEAH.

- AND PEOPLE THAT CAME FROM MY ANCESTRY.

- [MIKE] RIGHT.

- AND YOUR ANCESTRY.

SO TO SEE THAT FLAG STILL IN EXISTENCE TODAY SAYS THAT THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT IS INSENSITIVE TO THAT.

- YEAH.

- OR AT WORSE, CAN CARE LESS ABOUT IT.

- ABSOLUTELY.

- SO OUR WOUNDS AND OUR PAINS AREN'T ALLOWED TO HEAL EVERY TIME I HAVE TO LOOK INTO THIS CONFEDERATE FLAG.

- [MIKE] YES.

- AND I WORKED FOR A COMPANY, AND ONE OF THE DIVISIONS WAS IN NORTH CAROLINA, AND THEY HAD THE BIG CONFEDERATE FLAG FLYING OUT THERE.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- AND THEY HAD CONFEDERATE EMBLEMS ALL OVER THE CARS AND THE TRUCKS.

AND NO ONE UNDERSTOOD HOW THAT FELT TO ME WALKING INTO THAT BUILDING.

EVERY TIME I HAD TO GO THERE FOR A MEETING, AND I'M LOOKING AT THE FACES OF NOT KNOWING WHOSE CAR THAT WAS, OR WHO SUPPORTS THE FLAG.

WHO SUPPORTS THE SYMBOLISM AND THE MISSION OF WHAT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG STOOD FOR?

- OF WHAT VICE PRESIDENT STEPHENS OF THE CONFEDERACY SAID, "THE CORNERSTONE."

- [DR. THOMPSON] RIGHT.

- IS SLAVERY.

- EXACTLY.

SO WHO STILL BELIEVES THAT OR STILL PROMOTES IT AND TAKES PRIDE IN THAT.

I HAVE TO SIT ACROSS MEETINGS WITH FOLKS AND NOT KNOWING.

SO AGAIN, YOU CAN'T BE THE BEST THAT YOU CAN BE YET.

YOU'VE GOT THESE THINGS THAT ARE JUST MAKING YOU FEEL LESS THAN.

YOU'VE GOT THESE THINGS MAKING YOU FEEL, NOT FULLY PART OF A SOCIETY THAT FULLY EMBRACES YOU OR RESPECTS AND APPRECIATES YOU.

AND AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, WE'VE MADE A LOT OF CONTRIBUTIONS AND THAT'S WHY THIS TITLE ENDS WITH IN TRIUMPHS.

- AND TRIUMPHS!

- AND THERE'S A WHOLE SECTION THAT TALKS ABOUT OUR CONTRIBUTIONS IN MEDICINE.

- YES.

- [DR. THOMPSON] TECHNOLOGY.

- YES.

- DESPITE THE CHALLENGES, DESPITE THE BARRIERS THAT WERE PUT IN FRONT OF US, WE STILL FIND A WAY TO SUCCEED.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- WE STILL FIND A WAY TO OVERCOME AND NOT BE TAKING THE BALL AND GO HOME.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- WE'RE FIGURING OUT HOW DO I SUCCEED IN SPITE OF THIS?

- [MIKE] YES.

- AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE HAD TO DO.

RIGHT?

AND SO THAT BRINGS IT ALL FULL CIRCLE THAT, YES, WE HAVE PAINS AND SCARS, BUT JUST LIKE PAINS AND SCARS THAT ARE UNATTENDED, THEY DON'T EVER HEAL.

- [MIKE] YEAH.

- THEY FESTER.

AND YOU SWALLOW THEM DEEP AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY MIGHT COME OUT OR YOU DON'T KNOW HOW THEY AFFECT YOU FROM BEING ALL THAT YOU CAN BE OR HOW THEY GET PASSED DOWN FROM YOU TO YOUR CHILDREN.

- [MIKE] YES.

- OR TO YOU TO YOUR COMMUNITY.

YOU'RE DOING THINGS IN THE COMMUNITY THAT ARE SELF-DESTRUCTIVE AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THAT ANGER COMES FROM.

- YEAH.

- NOW IT'S LIKE, "NO, WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS "BECAUSE WE'RE HURTING AS A COMMUNITY.

- YES.

THIS IS AN AMAZING CONVERSATION.

I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WRAP, BUT RIGHT BEFORE I DO, I NEED YOU TO GIMME THREE THINGS.

VERY SHORT THAT WILL HELP TO IMPROVE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WHITES AND BLACKS IN THIS COUNTRY.

'CAUSE THEY NOT GOING BACK TO EUROPE AND WE'RE NOT GOING BACK TO AFRICA BESIDES VACATIONS AND VISITS.

WE'RE NOT REPATRIATING.

WHAT ARE THE THREE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD GIVE, HAVING WORKED IN CORPORATE AMERICA AND COMING FROM THE PROJECTS OF BOSTON, WHAT ARE THE THREE THINGS THAT WE COULD DO TO BETTER HELP HARMONY BETWEEN US COMMUNITIES?

- WELL, I THINK FIRST OF ALL, HUMANITY, YOU HAVE TO SEE US AS HUMAN BEINGS.

- [MIKE] SEE US AS HUMAN BEINGS.

- I THINK THAT, SECONDLY, I THINK YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THAT WE'RE CAPABLE.

WE HAVE SHOWN OURSELVES, IN ANYTHING WE'VE TRIED, WE'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AT IT.

- [MIKE] CONFIDENT AND COMPETENT.

- CONFIDENT AND COMPETENT.

AND I THINK JUST THIRDLY, JUST REALIZING THAT GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES.

YOU KNOW, HE'S MADE PEOPLE BLACK, WHITE, ASIAN, MIDDLE EASTERN.

ALL OF US COME FROM THE SAME CREATOR.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- SO YOU HAVE TO SEE US ALL AS BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- AND ONCE YOU DO THAT, MOST OF THE TIMES YOU WANT FOR YOUR BROTHER AND YOUR SISTER, SOMETIMES WHAT YOU AT LEAST WANT FOR YOURSELF, IF NOT MORE.

- [MIKE] GOOD, ABSOLUTELY.

- ONCE YOU SEE US AS BEING ALL THE SAME, THEN YOU WANT ALL OF US TO SUCCEED AS A SOCIETY.

- [MIKE] ABSOLUTELY.

- AND NOT BE IN THIS CONSTANT STATE OF TENSION.

- I WANNA THANK YOU FOR COMING.

- WELL, THANK YOU.

- I'D LIKE TO ENCOURAGE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING TO PICK UP "BLACK WOUNDS" "THE PAIN SCARS, AND TRIUMPHS OF BLACK AMERICA," BY LANZE THOMAS.

I WOULD LIKE TO ENCOURAGE MORE BLACK KIDS TO GO TO BLACK SCHOOLS, GO TO HBCUS.

AND I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR COMING ON "LOVE AND RESPECT."

I SINCERELY LOVE AND RESPECT YOU AND YOUR MESSAGE.

- THANK YOU.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU.

THANK YOU.

- [ANNOUNCER] "LOVE & RESPECT" WITH KILLER MIKE IS MADE POSSIBLE BY... - REGINA APPROACHES THE ALL-ELECTRIC CADILLAC LYRIQ.

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