>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

MORE HOSTAGES AND PRISONERS EXPECTED TO BE RELEASED AS ISRAEL AND HAMAS CONTINUE THEIR TRUCE.

AS ISRAEL GATHERS EVIDENCE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th, I'LL SPEAK TO RUTH HALPERN KA'DARRY, A WOMEN'S RIGHTS ADVOCATE WHO ACCUSES THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OF STAYING SILENT.

THEN I'LL PUT THAT SAME QUESTION TO SARAH HENDRICKS FROM THE U.N. >>> AND DISINFORMATION, DEEPFAKES AND DIVISION.

AN ISRAELI CYBER JOURNALIST TELLS ME HOW THE WAR IS PLAYING OUT ONLINE.

>>> PLUS, ONE OF THE HIDDEN HEROES OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT GETS HIS DUE IN THE OBAMA-BACKED FILM SRINIVASIN.

AND WE SPAKE WITH JAMES FALLOWS.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, CANDICE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THERE ARE MORE HOSTAGES EXPECTED TO BE RELEASED AS PART OF AN EXTENDED TRUCE.

BUT THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th ARE STILL BEING UNCOVERED.

ISRAELI POLICE ALONG WITH A CIVIL COMMISSION ARE COMPILING FORENSIC EVIDENCE, VIDEO AND TESTIMONY TO DOCUMENT CASES OF RAPE AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN BY HAMAS.

CNN SPOKE WITH WITNESSES TO THOSE HARROWING EVENTS AND A WARNING THAT THE FOLLOWING TESTIMONIES ARE GRAPHIC AND CONTAIN DISTURBING ACCOUNTS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

FIRST, TAKE A LISTEN TO AN ISRAELI PARAMEDIC WHOSE UNIT RESPONDED TO ONE MASSACRE SITE ON OCTOBER 7th AT KIBBUTZ BE'ERI.

HE DID NOT WANT TO BE IDENTIFIED.

>> THE DOORS I OPENED, THE BEDROOM.

I SEE TWO GIRLS TWO, TEENAGERS.

I GUESS 13 OR 14 YEARS OLD.

ONE IS LYING ON THE FLOOR.

ONE IS LYING ON THE BED.

ONE ON THE FLOOR, SHE IS LYING ON HER STOMACH.

HER PANTS ARE PULLED DOWN TO HER KNEES, AND THERE IS A BULLET WOUND ON THE BACK SIDE OF HER NECK NEAR HER HEAD, AND THERE IS A PUDDLE OF BLOOD AROUND HER HEAD.

AND THE REMAINS OF SEMEN ON THE LOWER PART OF HER BACK.

>> THOUSANDS OF STATEMENTS AND VIDEO CLIPS HAVE BEEN COLLECTED, BUT INVESTIGATORS DO NOT HAVE FIRSTHAND TESTIMONY, AND IT'S NOT CLEAR IF ANY VICTIMS SURVIVED.

HOWEVER, ISRAELI POLICE SAY DEAD BODIES BROUGHT FOR IDENTIFICATION SHOW TRAUMA CONSISTENT WITH RAPE AND ASSAULT.

ONE MORGUE WORKER DESCRIBED WHAT SHE DISCOVERED.

>> THE UNDERWEAR WAS OFTEN BLOODY.

SOME OF THEM HAD UNDERWEAR ON THAT WAS VERY BLOODY.

AND THAT WAS VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ALSO.

WE ALSO SAW MOST OF THE PEOPLE, THE WOMEN WERE SHOT AT LEAST ONCE IN THE BODY, BUT THEN THEY WERE SHOT IN THE HEAD.

AND THEY WERE SHOT IN THE HEAD MANY TIMES.

AND IT OFTEN SEEMED TO BE GRATUITOUS CRUELTY, ABJECT CRUELTY, BECAUSE IT WAS SEEM TO HAVE BEEN DONE JUST TO MUTILATE THEM.

THE WOMEN WE SAW WERE NOT JUST KILLED, THEY WERE CRUELLY, CRUELLY MUTILATED, IN MANY PARTS OF THEIR BODIES.

>> SOME SAY THOSE HARROWING STORIES HAVE BEEN IGNORED BY INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES.

INCLUDING RUTH HALPERN KADARI, SCHOLAR WHO FEELS COMPLETELY BETRAYED BY WOMEN'S RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS.

HE IS JOIN ME NEWS.

OUR K MAY CONTAIN CONVERSATION OF GRAPHIC VIOLENCE.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT BUT VERY IMPORTANT CONVERSATION TO HAVE.

AS JUST A CITIZEN AND A JOURNALIST LISTENING TO WHAT WE JUST PLAYED, IT IS QUITE DAMNING.

BUT AS AN EXPERT YOURSELF, WHO HAS BEEN IN THIS FIELD FOR MANY YEARS, CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US HOW SEXUAL VIOLENCE WAS USED AS A WEAPON OF WAR BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th AGAINST ISRAELI WOMEN?

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU, BIANNA, FOR HAVING ME ON THIS SHOW.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT INTERNATIONAL MEDIA AND INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES START PAYING MORE ATTENTION TO THIS AS SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND RAPE WAS INDEED USED AS A WEAPON OF WAR BY HAMAS TOWARDS ISRAELI SOCIETY, PARTICULARLY TOWARDS TARGETING ISRAELI WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND GIRLS.

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN HISTORICALLY THAT THE FACT, PART OF WAR THAT WOMEN'S BODIES HAD BEEN WEAPONIZED AND WERE USED IN ORDER TO INSTIGATE THE MOST HORRIFIC HORROR AND TERROR WITHIN SOCIETY AT LARGE, AND NOT JUST AGAINST THE INDIVIDUAL WOMEN WHO WERE VICTIMIZED.

IT'S LIKE -- IT'S AS IF THE BODY OF WOMEN REPRESENTS THE BODY OF THE NATION.

AND WHEN VICTIMIZING AND VIOLATING THE BODY OF THE WOMEN, IT IS SUPPOSED TO INSTILL THE GREATEST FEAR AND THE GREATEST HUMILIATION FOR THE NATION AS A WHOLE.

AND THIS WAS PREMEDITATED AND INTENTIONALLY TARGETED BY HAMAS.

IN ADDITION TO THESE EVIDENCE THAT YOU JUST SCREENED AND MENTIONING THE ONGOING INVESTIGATION, THERE ALREADY ARE STATEMENTS ISSUED BY HAMAS TERRORISTS WHO ARE BEING INTERROGATED IN ISRAEL, AND THEY CLEARLY SAY, THEY TELL ABOUT THE INSTRUCTIONS AND THE PERMISSION THAT THEY WERE GIVEN BY RELIGIOUS LEADER TO PERFORM THESE ATROCITIES.

>> AND WHAT'S NOTABLE WHEN YOU MENTION THAT, THE EVIDENCE AND WHAT WE'VE HEARD FROM THESE INTERROGATIONS FROM THE TERRORISTS WHO WERE CAPTURED IS THAT YESTERDAY A PROMINENT ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION PHYSICIANS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ISRAEL IS CALLING NOW FOR THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT TO INVESTIGATE WHETHER SOME OF THESE ACCOUNTS AND REPORTS OF SEXUAL ABUSE COMMITTED BY HAMAS AGAINST ISRAELI WOMEN ON OCTOBER 7th CUTE CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

AND SOME OF THEIR EVIDENCE THAT THEY LIST DOES NOT INCLUDE ANYTHING THAT CAME OUT OF INTERROGATION, BECAUSE THEY SAY THAT THAT MAY OPEN A WINDOW FOR COERCION.

SO THIS IS SEPARATE.

THIS IS COMING FROM DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE THEY HAVE COMPILED FROM THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY.

HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS?

>> IT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE PHYSICIANS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IS AN INCREDIBLY CREDIBLE CIVIL SOCIETY ORGANIZATION.

AND I'M REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THE WORK THAT THEY DID IN PUTTING ALL THE DOCS TOGETHER.

THIS IS WHAT I AM NOW VISITING IN GENEVA, AND I HAVE MET WITH A NUMBER OF HIGH LEVEL OFFICIALS, INCLUDING THE HIGH COMMISSIONER OF HUMAN RIGHTS, VOLKA TURK, AND I ALSO SPOKE IN FRONT OF MANY AMBASSADORS YESTERDAY AT A CLOSED EVENT AND PRESENTED THIS KIND OF EVIDENCE AND TESTIMONIES, AND WALKED THROUGH ALL THE DOCS TOGETHER BECAUSE DESPITE NOT HAVING SURVIVED BEING WITNESSES, WE DO HAVE EYEWITNESS SURVIVOR WHO WITNESSED A GANG RAPE NEXT TO HER.

WE DO HAVE A PARAMEDIC WHO SPOKE TO A SURVIVOR WHO DESCRIBED THAT SHE WAS RAPED BY FOUR MEN, AND WE DO HAVE ALL THE OTHER EVIDENCE AND I DO THINK THAT WE NEED TO ADD THIS TO WHAT COMES OUT OF THE INTERROGATIONS OF THE TERRORISTS BECAUSE THIS DEMONSTRATES THE PREMEDITATED PLAN AND THE SYSTEMATIC NATURE IN WHICH THESE ORDERS WERE ACTUALLY EXECUTED BY THE TERRORISTS.

RECALL THAT THE MASSACRE ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN 22 LOCATIONS AT THE SAME TIME.

AND THESE HORRIFIC IMAGES OF THE BODIES THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED THE BEGINNING OF THIS PART AND THE TESTIMONY THAT COMES FROM THE VOLUNTEERING IN THE IDF MORGUE, THEY DESCRIBE THE SAME PATTERN, THE SAME METHOD IN WHICH THESE HORRIFIC ATROCITIES WERE EXECUTED BY THE TERRORISTS IN SEPARATE LOCATION, IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

THIS DEMONSTRATES A PRECONCEIVED AND PREMEDITATED PLAN.

AND THAT IS WHY IT DOES AMOUNT TO CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

>> CAN YOU EXPLAIN MORE?

BECAUSE YOU'VE NOW LISTED THREE TIMES THAT IN YOUR TESTIMONY AND EVEN SPEAKING WITH US THAT THE PREMEDITATION FACTOR.

HOW DOES THAT PLAY INTO ANY INVESTIGATION HERE?

>> THE FACT THAT THAT SO MANY CASES OCCURRED AT THE SAME TIME WITH THE SAME EXTREME BRUTALITY, THE LEVEL OF BRUTALITY, YOU WARNED AT THE BEGINNING BUT WE DIDN'T EVEN DESCRIBE THE EXTENT OF THE BRUTALITY THAT WAS EXEMPLIFIED IN THE BODIES THAT WERE FOUND.

SO THE CONCENTRATION OF ALL THESE CASES OCCURRING WITHIN ACTUALLY A RELATIVELY SHORT SPAN OF TIME, BECAUSE ALL THIS WAS IN LESS THAN A DAY.

ALL THIS ADDS TOGETHER.

IT COULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT PREMEDITATION AND WITHOUT PRECONCEIVED ORDERS TO EXACTLY PERFORM THAT.

>> I JUST SPOKE WITH THE FIRST LADY OF ISRAEL, MIHAEL HERZOG ON THIS ISSUE IN THE LAST HOUR, AND SHE EXPRESSED WHAT SHE HAD WRITTEN ABOUT IN HER OP-ED, JUST HER DISAPPOINTMENT AND JUST REAL SHOCK IN THE LACK OF GLOBAL OUTRAGE SPECIFICALLY AMONG WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS AND THOSE WITHIN THE U.N. YOU SIMILARLY HAVE BEEN CRITICAL ABOUT A VERY HOLLOW OR LACK OF A RESPONSE.

AND LET'S JUST GIVE OUR VIEWERS A SENSE OF THE TICK-TOCK HERE, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT OCCURRED SEVEN WEEKS AGO NOW.

THE U.N. MADE A STATEMENT JUST A WEEK AFTER THE TERROR ATTACKS THAT DID NOT MENTION SEXUAL VIOLENCE AT ALL.

THE U.N. THEN CONDEMNED, QUOTE, ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS AS WELL AS ANY USE OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS A WEAPON OF WAR.

AND JUST LAST WEEK, THE U.N. TWEETED, "WE MET WITH ISRAELI WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS AND HEARD ABOUT THE WORK OF THE CIVIL WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

WE REMAIN ALARMED BY GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE REPORTS ON 7th OF OCTOBER AND CALL FOR RIGOROUS INVESTIGATION, PRIORITIZING THE RIGHTS, NEEDS, AND SAFETY OF THOSE AFFECTED."

AGAIN, THIS IS FROM U.N. WOMEN, AN ORGANIZATION YOU HAVE BEEN AFFILIATED WITH AND HAD BEEN AFFILIATED WITH FOR A DOZEN PLUS YEARS.

NOT MENTIONED HERE WAS HAMAS.

NOT MENTIONED HERE WAS SEXUAL ASSAULTS AND RAPE OF ISRAELI WOMEN ON OCTOBER 7th.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THE RESPONSES THUS FAR?

>> I WAS ACTUALLY AFFILIATED WITH THE COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION OF DISCRIMINATION AGAINST WOMEN, THE CETA, WHICH IS ANOTHER HUMAN RIGHTS BODY THAT IS ALSO CHARGED IN PROMOTING AND PROTECTING WOMEN'S RIGHTS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

BUT CETA, AS WELL AS U.N. WOMEN, THEIR RESPONSE WAS REALLY DEVASTATING, IT WAS HEARTBREAKING FOR ME.

BECAUSE NEITHER OF THEM ACKNOWLEDGED OR RECOGNIZED THE EXISTENCE, THE FACT THAT SEXUAL VIOLENCE WAS PART OF THE HAMAS MASSACRE, THE HAMAS OCTOBER 7th ATTACK.

AND THESE ARE BODIES WHOSE REASON TO BE IS TO PROTEC WOMEN, TO PROTECT THEM FROM VIOLENCE, ALL WOMEN IN ALL PLACES OF THE WORLD, REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY, OF RACE, OF RELIGION.

AND BY NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THIS, BY DISMISSING, BY IGNORING, THEY ARE IN FACT ALMOST I WOULD SAY LEGITIMIZING THE EXISTENCE OF THESE ATROCITIES.

THEY ARE SIGNALING, THEY'RE SENDING A MESSAGE THAT THESE ATROCITIES CAN GO ON UNACCOUNTED FOR.

AND HAMAS ALREADY SAID THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN, A MILLION, 7th OF OCTOBER.

THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID.

SO IS THIS THE MESSAGE THAT THESE HUMAN RIGHTS BODIES, THE INTERNATIONAL HUMAN RIGHTS COMMUNITY WANTS TO SEND TO THE WORLD, WANTS TO SEND TO HAMAS OR TO OTHER TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, THAT THIS CAN GO ON UNACCOUNTED FOR?

>> RIGHT AFTER OUR INTERVIEW, HE WILL BE SPEAKING WITH THE DEPUTY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR U.N. WOMEN.

SHE IS LISTENING TO THIS INTERVIEW, AND I'M WONDERING IF THERE ARE ANY WORDS OR QUESTIONS THAT YOU HAVE FOR HER BEFORE I TURN THINGS OVER TO THAT CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU.

I AM GLAD TO NOTICE BEGINNING OF A CHANGE OF THE ATTITUDE FROM U.N. WOMEN AND HOPEFULLY FROM OTHER HUMAN RIGHTS BODIES, AND I ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THE FACT THAT THE HEAD OF THE U.N. WOMEN GENEVA OFFICE YESTERDAY IN OPENING THE 16 DAYS OF FIGHT OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN DID REFER TO OCTOBER 7th AS A PLACE WHERE SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN WAS COMMITTED.

SO I HOPE THAT THIS SIGNALS A CHANGE, AND I DO HOPE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO COLLABORATE IN THE FUTURE IN ORDER TO NOT JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THIS, BUT ALSO MAKE EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO PREVENT FURTHER ATROCITIES LIKE THAT FROM OCCURRING EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

>> RUTH HALPERN KADARI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTARY AND INPUT.

THANK YOU.

>>> LET ME NOW BRING IN SARAH HENDRICKS, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR U.N. WOMEN.

SHE JOIN US FROM DUBAI.

SARAH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I ASSUME YOU HEARD THE CONVERSATION WITH RUTH AND HER DIRECT MESSAGE TO YOU.

SO I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE FLOOR TO RESPOND.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, BIANNA, AND THANK YOU TO RUTH FOR HER IMPORTANT WORDS.

AND INDEED, U.N. WOMEN IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY ALARMED AT THE DISTURBING REPORTS OF GENDER-BASED AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND AS WE HEAD IN THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND THROUGH VARIOUS PLATFORMS, WE ABSOLUTELY UNEQUIVOCALLY CONDEMN ALL FORMS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND GIRLS, ESPECIALLY IN THE CONTEXT OF CONFLICT.

AS YOU JUST HEARD RUTH SAY, THIS IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE, AND GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AS A WEAPON OF WAR IS TOTALLY REPREHENSIBLE.

CERTAINLY, WE HAVE CALLED FROM THE BEGINNING FOR THE NEED TO PROTECT CIVILIANS, INCLUDING AND ESPECIALLY WOMEN AND GIRLS IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS CONFLICT, AND WE'VE CALLED FOR THE NEED FOR ANY ALLEGATIONS OF GENDER-BASED ATROCITIES TO BE FULLY INVESTIGATED WITH THE UTMOST PRIORITY.

>> IS THERE A REASON, THOUGH, SARAH, THAT YOU CAN'T SPECIFICALLY CALL OUT HAMAS AND THE MOUNTING EVIDENCE NOW OVER SEVEN WEEKS THAT ISRAELI INVESTIGATORS HAVE COLLECTED THAT WE'VE SHOWN OUR VIEWERS ABOUT THE ATROCITIES THEY COMMITTED SPECIFICALLY ON OCTOBER 7th?

BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE HERE.

IT'S NOT JUST CONDEMNING SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN AND IN ANY WAR IN GENERAL.

IT'S SPECIFICALLY WHAT OCCURRED ON OCTOBER 7th, PERPETRATED BY HAMAS.

>> INDEED.

U.N. WOMEN ALWAYS SUPPORTS IMPARTIAL, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIONS INTO ANY SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS OF GENDER-BASED OR SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

AND WITHIN THE U.N. FAMILY, THESE INVESTIGATIONS ARE LED BY THE OFFICE OF THE HIGH COMMISSIONER OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND JUST TO PROVIDE A LITTLE BIT OF CONTEXT IN TERMS OF U.N. WOMEN'S RULE, U.N. WOMEN SPECIFICALLY PROVIDES AND HAS EXTENSIVE KNOWLEDGE ON GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AND PROVIDES AND SUPPORTS INVESTIGATIONS AS WE DO WITH ALL U.N.

INVESTIGATIONS.

AND SO CONSEQUENTLY, IN THIS CONTEXT, AND WITHIN THE U.N. SYSTEM, IT IS THE INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY, WHICH FOR US HAS THE MANDATE TO INVESTIGATE ALL ALLEGED VIOLATIONS.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT FOR THE RIGHTS, FOR THE NEEDS, FOR THE PROTECTION, FOR THE DIGNITY, FOR THE SURVIVORS OF VIOLENCE TO BE SUPPORTED THROUGHOUT A PROCESS.

AND THAT'S WHY WE WORK THROUGH THESE GLOBALLY MANDATED MECHANISMS.

THAT NOTWITHSTANDING, WE UNDERSTAND AND CERTAINLY WE ENCOURAGE AND SUPPORT NATIONAL LEVEL EFFORTS, THE ONES THAT YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT TODAY, THE CIVIL COMMISSION IN ISRAEL, WHICH HAS BROUGHT TOGETHER WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS TO DOCUMENT GENDER-BASED ATROCITIES IMPARTIALLY.

OUR WORK WILL BE ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION.

SO I HOPE THAT CLARITY -- >> SO ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH THE PACE OF THE U.N. AND U.N. WOMEN'S RESPONSE?

BECAUSE WE HEARD SOME STRONG WORDS LAST WEEK FROM THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N., LINDA THOMAS GREENFIELD ASKING WHY THERE ISN'T MORE OUTRAGE FROM THAT SPECIFIC BODY AND ANY MORE CONDEMNATION FROM THAT BODY.

WE'VE HEARD FROM OFFICIALS IN EUROPE AS WELL.

SO IT'S NOT JUST THE ISRAELIS.

AND I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU SOUND FROM THE FIRST LADY OF ISRAEL WHO I JUST INTERVIEWED IN THE LAST HOUR ABOUT WHAT SHE SAYS ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT SPEAKING OUT.

BECAUSE SHE IS SAYING THEY APPLY TO WOMEN JUST BEYOND ISRAELIS.

LISTEN.

>> THE WOMEN THAT WERE VICTIMS CANNOT STAND FOR THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLED.

THEY WERE MURDERED.

THEIR BODIES WERE MUTILATED.

THEY CANNOT SPEAK UP FOR THEIRSELVES SO THAT IS WHY WHEN THEY SAY I'M ALARMED, THEY'RE ALARMED, I AM ALARMED THAT THIS IS THE ONLY -- THE STRONGEST WORD THEY CAN USE.

IT IS VERY ALARMING BECAUSE WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND.

TODAY IT'S ISRAELI WOMEN.

TOMORROW IT CAN BE OTHERS.

>> SO SHE MAKES THAT POINT.

AND OTHERS WOULD ARGUE THAT IN THIS TIME FRAME, YOU'VE HAD MANY PEOPLE, SOME POWERFUL PEOPLE AT UNIVERSITIES WHO RUN WOMEN'S ASSAULT ORGANIZATIONS FIRED FROM THEIR JOBS BECAUSE THEY ARE ACTUALLY QUESTIONING THE VALIDITY OF ANY OF THESE DETAILS.

>> I WANT TO, BIANNA, EMPHASIZE AGAIN, THAT FROM THE BEGINNING, U.N. WOMEN AND THE U.N. SYSTEM INDEED WENT INTO ACTION TO SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY.

WHICH AS I SAID, HAS THE MANDATE TO INVESTIGATE ALL ALLEGED VIOLATIONS.

THIS IS DONE NOT IN THE PUBLIC EYE.

IT'S DONE INTENTIONALLY NOT IN THE PUBLIC EYE, IN ORDER TO SUPPORT AND PROTECT THE DIGNITY AND THE RIGHTS OF VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS OF VIOLENCE.

WE CALL THIS A SURVIVOR AND VICTIM-ORIENTED APPROACH FOR A REASON.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THIS IS DONE IN THAT WAY.

AND I HOPE THAT THIS IS WELL UNDERSTOOD.

BY US EXPRESSING OUR ALARM, BY US EXPRESSING OUR GRAVE CONCERN, IT IS TO STAND SIDE BY SIDE, TO LOOK AT THE HORRORS OF THAT DAY AND TO LOOK THEM SQUARELY IN THEIR EYE, EVEN AS WE WORK IN PARALLEL TO ENSURE THAT EFFECTIVE DOCUMENTATION, EFFECTIVE ANALYSIS IS UNDERTAKEN IN ORDER FOR THERE TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND I HOPE THAT THAT'S CLEAR.

>> I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EXPLAINING THIS.

I GUESS MY FINAL QUESTION TO YOU IS, IS THIS TYPE OF INVESTIGATION, THESE TYPES OF RESPONSES THE SAME THAT YOUR ORGANIZATION WOULD ISSUE FOR ANY COUNTRY THAT HAD THIS TYPE OF ATTACK INFLICTED UPON THEM AND CRIMES AS YOU HAVE RESPONDED TO ISRAEL THUS FAR?

>> CORRECT.

I'M SO GLAD YOU ASKED THAT QUESTION, BECAUSE, INDEED, THIS IS THE VERY SAME APPROACH.

THESE ARE THE VERY SAME TOOLS THAT WE UTILIZE IN ALL CONTEXTS WHERE THERE ARE GRAVE VIOLATIONS OF GENDER-BASED ATROCITIES AND OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN THE CONTEXT OF CONFLICT.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENT.

WE HAVE PUT OUR FULL CAPACITY AND SUPPORT INTO THE PROCESS OF THIS INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION AS SUCH.

I DID SPEAK JUST LAST WEEK WITH ISRAELI WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS, AND I HEARD FROM LEADERS OF ISRAELI WOMEN'S ORGANIZATIONS ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING TO DOCUMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

WE SHARED AND HEARD FROM EACH OTHER, LEARNING FROM EACH OTHER THEIR PROCESSES AND U.N. WOMEN AND THE U.N. SYSTEM SHARING ABOUT OUR PROCESS.

IT WAS AN IMPORTANT EXCHANGE.

WHAT WAS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT WAS ALSO US COMING TOGETHER AND AGREEING ON THE IMPORTANCE OF BOTH ISRAELI AND PALESTINIAN WOMEN COMING TOGETHER TO DRIVE FORWARD A MANDATE OF PEACE WITH BOTH VOICES AT THE PEACE TABLE.

>> SARAH HENDRIX, WE REALLY DO APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TODAY.

AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR CONTINUED INVESTIGATION INTO THESE HEINOUS ATTACKS OF OCTOBER 7th.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW THE CONFLICT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS IS ALSO BEING FOUGHT ONLINE, WHERE AN INFLUX OF ISRAELI AND HAMAS CONTENT IS BATTLING FOR HEARTS AND MINDS.

WHILE IN THE WILD WEST OF SOCIAL MEDIA, IT'S NO SURPRISE THAT DISINFORMATION IS RIFE, SOMETHING THAT'S COMING INTO STARK FOCUS THIS WEEK.

AS ELON MUSK, THE CEO OF X, FORMERLY KNOWN AS TWITTER, MET WITH ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND PRESIDENT ISAAC HERZOG.

IT'S A TRIP THAT COMES JUST AFTER MUSK ENDORSED AN ANTISEMITIC CONSPIRACY THEORY ON HIS OWN PLATFORM.

SOMEONE WATCHING ALL OF THIS CLOSELY IS OMER BEN JACOB, A CYBER SECURITY AND TECH CORRESPONDENT FOR HAARETZ, AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

OMER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

SO FIRST, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS DISINFORMATION -- >> PLEASURE.

>> -- IN THE FORM OF CONVERSATION I JUST HAD WITH RUTH AND THE OFFICIAL FROM THE U.N., SARAH HENDRICKS.

THERE IS A LOT OF INFORMATION NOW JUST IN COVERING A SUBJECT THAT SHOULD -- EVERYONE SHOULD AGREE UPON WAS, AS WE'RE GETTING MORE FACTS IN, A HEINOUS ATTACK.

AND YET WE KNOW WE'RE STARTING TO HEAR DIFFERING VOICES ON THIS ISSUE ONLINE AS WELL.

TALK ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISINFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION.

>> SO I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THIS WAR AND ON A SCALE WE'VE YET TO SEE OR UNPRECEDENTED LEVEL IS HOW BOTH NEFARIOUS STATE ACTORS LIKE RUSSIA AND OTHERS, BUT ALSO PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT ISRAEL OR PALESTINIAN ARE ACTUALLY THROWING FACTS UNDER THE BUS.

WE'RE SEEING INFORMATION AND FACTS BEING WEAPONIZED AT A SCALE THAT I DON'T RECALL.

AND I THINK TECH AND SPECIFICALLY ELON MUSK IS ALLOWING THAT TO SCALE.

I THINK RAPE IS ONE HORRIFYING EXAMPLE OF THAT.

WE HAVE AND WE'RE SEEING THIS ONLINE A LOT WHERE ALLEGEDLY PRO-PALESTINIAN VOICES FEEL THIS NEED TO DENY SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND RAPE AGAINST ISRAELIS, VIOLENCE THAT WAS DOCUMENTED BY THOSE ACTUALLY PERPETRATING IT.

AND THIS DENIAL IS PART OF AN ATTEMPT TO HELP THE PALESTINIAN CAUSE.

AND I THINK THE INTENTION MIGHT BE GOOD, BUT THIS DENIAL IS DANGEROUS.

AND THAT LEADS US TO THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN KIND OF DISINFORMATION AND MISINFORMATION.

SO DISINFORMATION IS WHEN, FOR EXAMPLE, A RUSSIAN OPERATION FORGES WEBSITES AND PUSHES OUT FAKE INFORMATIONS THEY KNOW IT IS FALSE AND PUSH IT OUT FOR NEFARIOUS REASONS, AS OPPOSED TO MISINFORMATION, WHICH IS SOMEONE PRO-PALESTINIAN, PRO ISRAELI FOR EXAMPLE, SHARING SOMETHING THEY BELIEVE WILL HELP THEIR SIDE BUT IS ACTUALLY WRONG.

AND I THINK WHAT IS SO INTERESTING IS THAT WE'RE SEEING BOTH SIDES NOW FIND THE NEED TO KIND OF DENY THE OTHER SIDE'S FACT.

AND THERE IS SOMETHING VERY DANGEROUS ABOUT THIS DIVIDE IN REALITY WHERE NO ONE SIDE AND ANYONE BELIEVES ANYMORE ANY FORM OF INFORMATION COMING FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

AND I'M CONCERNED NOT AS AN ISRAELI, BUT AS A JOURNALIST.

AND I THINK IT'S VERY WORRYING THAT WE SO QUICKLY REACHED THIS STATE WHERE NO SIDE CAN -- WE NO LONGER HAVE A SHARED REALITY.

NO ONE BELIEVES ANYONE.

AND NO FACT CAN BE PERCEIVED, YOU KNOW, JUST IN ITS OWN RIGHT.

AND I THINK THAT'S VERY DANGEROUS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT ELON MUSK'S VISIT TO ISRAEL YESTERDAY.

OBVIOUSLY, X HAS COME UNDER A LOT OF SCRUTINY AND CRITICISM FOR THE SPREADING OF MISINFORMATION AND ANTI-SEMITISM AND SOME POSTS THAT HE ACTUALLY ENDORSED AND RETWEETED AND AMPLIFIED.

AND NONETHELESS, HE CAME TO ISRAEL AND HAD A MEETING WITH THE PRIME MINISTER, WITH THE PRESIDENT.

YOUR PUBLICATION REALLY CHALLENGED HIS TRIP AND THE WORTHINESS OF IT.

A PIECE TITLED "ISRAEL'S REPULSIVE EMBRACE OF ELON MUSK IS A CYNICAL BETRAYAL OF JEWS DEAD AND ALIVE."

I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO ENDORSE OR WHETHER OR NOT YOU ENDORSE THAT SPECIFIC ARTICLE, BUT TALK ABOUT THE REACTION TO HAVING THIS MAN IN PARTICULAR VISIT NOW.

>> SO I THINK WHAT'S SO IRONIC AND CONCERNING AND TERRIBLE ABOUT THIS IS THAT ELON MUSK HAS ACTUALLY HELPED CREATE THE CONDITIONS NEEDED FOR THIS TERRIBLE STATE WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW.

SO REGARDLESS WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT HIS POLITICS, OR EVEN NETANYAHU'S POLITICS, THIS CURRENT SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE CANNOT RECOGNIZE THAT ISRAELIS WERE -- INNOCENT ISRAELIS WERE MURDERED AND SLAUGHTERED ON OCTOBER 7th WHILE ALSO SIMULTANEOUSLY RECOGNIZING THAT CIVILIANS IN GAZA ARE ALSO BEING KILLED AS PART OF THE ISRAELI RESPONSE.

AND A SITUATION WHICH NO SIDE CAN ACCEPT A SHARED REALITY IS BASED ON THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ELON MUSK MAKES MONEY OFF OF.

AND HE IS ACTUALLY EXPEDITED A LOT OF THESE PROCESSES.

SO IN THE PAST POST KIND OF TRUMP, WE SAW TONS OF DISINFORMATION MECHANISMS PUT INTO PLATFORMS LIKE TWITTER.

AND ALL THESE MECHANISMS HAVE BEEN ROLLED BACK.

AND I THINK THIS TRULY TERRIBLE KIND OF DIVISION AND REALITY THAT WE'RE NOW LIVING THROUGH IS HOW ELON MUSK ACTUALLY MAKES MONEY.

AND I THINK WHEN YOU CONNECT THAT TO THE POLITICS OF NETANYAHU, YOU CAN KIND OF SEE WHY NEWSPAPERS LIKE HAARETZ AND PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE STATE OF VERACITY AND FACTS TAKE ISSUE WITH THIS, BECAUSE THE REALITY IS THAT THEY'RE ALLIES.

THERE IS ALMOST THIS KIND OF INTERNATIONAL ACCESS OR THIS ACCESS OF INTERNATIONAL TECHNOLOGY AND LOCAL NATIONALIST POPULIST LEADERS WHO ARE INVESTED IN THIS.

AND I THINK NETANYAHU, BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE PERCEIVED AS PART OF THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, AS SOMEONE WHO PLAYS ON THE INTERNATIONAL LEVEL, WILL MEET SOMEONE LIKE ELON MUSK AND GIVE HIM AN EASY PR WIN.

BUT THE REALITY OF IT IS THAT THEY'RE BOTH QUITE COMPLICIT IN CREATING THIS VERY POLITICIZED REALITY.

AND AGAIN, A REALITY IN WHICH WE CAN'T ACCEPT THAT ISRAELIS WERE SLAUGHTERED AND RAPED WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY ACCEPTING THAT GAZANS ARE DYING.

WE CAN SAY WHAT HAPPENED REGARDLESS OF OUR POLITICS, AND WE CAN KIND OF CREATE A JUST A SHARED SENSE OF REALITY, RIGHT.

I'VE SEEN ONLINE, ON TWITTER A GOOD EXAMPLE, ON X, FORGIVE ME.

I'VE SEEN THE SAME VIDEO FROM BOTH SIDES USED WITH DIFFERENT CAPTIONS.

THAT'S A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

THERE IS A VIDEO OF CHILDREN IN CAGES.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING IT'S ISRAELI CAPTIVES.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING IT IS PALESTINIANS THAT ISRAEL HAD ARRESTED.

IT WAS AN OLD VIDEO FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND BOTH SIDES WERE WRONG.

IT'S SUCH A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW TWITTER HAS REALLY HELPED CREATE THIS TERRIBLE SCHISM IN REALITY.

>> LET'S MOVE ON FROM TWITTER TO A PLATFORM THAT YOU'VE ACTUALLY BEEN QUITE COMPLIMENTARY OF, AND THAT IS WIKIPEDIA, BECAUSE YOU ALSO REPORT THAT NETANYAHU HAS ABUSED THIS PLATFORM, IF NOT NETANYAHU HIMSELF, THEN SOME OF HIS SUPPORTERS BY CONSTANTLY GOING IN AND EDITING HIS PAGE.

CAN YOU GIVE US MORE INSIGHT INTO THAT AND WHY IT MATTERS?

>> SURE.

SO FOR MANY YEARS NOW I'VE BEEN REPORTING ABOUT WIKIPEDIA, BECAUSE I THINK ACTUALLY UNLIKE SOCIAL MEDIA, IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SOCIAL MEDIA ONLINE, THE MOST IMPORTANT SOURCE OF INFORMATION ONLINE, AND THERE HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTS BY DIFFERENT KINDS OF ACTORS TO INFLUENCE IT AND SKEW THE CONTENT.

WE'VE SEEN THIS ABOUT ISRAEL.

WE'VE SEEN PRO AND ANTI-ISRAELI FORCES DO INFORMATION AND DISINFORMATION WAR ABOUT ISRAEL AND PALESTINIAN ON WIKIPEDIA IN ENGLISH, BUT ALSO INTERNALLY, INSIDE WIKIPEDIA.

IN HEBREW, WE'VE SEEN EFFORTS BY PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPORTIVE OF NETANYAHU TO KIND OF HELP PUSH OUT HIS NARRATIVE ACCORDING TO WHICH ISRAEL WAS -- WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7 IS THE RESULT OF A MILITARY FAILURE.

IT'S NO AT POLICY FAILURE ON HIS PART.

WE'VE SEEN WIKIPEDIA GET PULLED INTO THIS FRAY FOR THE SAME REASON WE SEE JOURNALISM BEING WEAPONIZED, BECAUSE YOU NEED CREDIBILITY.

DISINFORMATION THRIVES OFF OF CREDIBILITY, RIGHT?

JUST TO TAKE HAARETZ AS AN EXAMPLE, WE'RE SEEING ON TONS OF WELCOMESES, TONS OF SOCIAL MEDIA ONLINE AND TELEGRAM MISREPRESENTATION OF HOW THIS WORKS.

WE FIND THERE WAS NO SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS FALSE.

WE REPORTED ON JUST THE STUFF YOU HAVE NOW SPOKEN ABOUT.

WE'RE SEEING DIFFERENT ATTEMPTS TO KIND OF USE DIFFERENT PRESTIGIOUS SOURCES TO MISREPRESENT THE FACTS, AND WE'VE ALSO SEEN THAT ON WIKIPEDIA, BUT WIKIPEDIA IS BETTER THAN SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE WIKIPEDIA REQUIRES YOU TO CHECK YOUR SOURCE THAT WOULD BE THE ONE BIG TAKEAWAY FOR VIEWERS.

CHECK SOURCES.

DON'T SHARE THINGS THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY CAME FROM.

IT'S SUCH A BASIC RULE TO APPLY, AND WIKIPEDIA APPLIES IT SO IT ACTUALLY WEEDS OUT A LOT OF THE DISINFORMATION EFFORTS.

THERE WERE ATTEMPTS BY PRO NETANYAHU SUPPORTERS TO SKEW THE CONTENT FOR SURE.

>> THAT'S WHY THEY CONSTANTLY HAVE TO GO AND REEDIT DID.

>> EXACTLY.

>> SLEUTH OBSERVERS ARE THERE AND WATCHING IT AND CATCH IT AND THEN GO IN AND TRY TO EDIT AFTER THE FACT.

OMER BEN JACOB, THIS IS REALLY FASCINATING.

WE'LL HAVE TO HAVE YOU BACK ON TO TALK ABOUT THE WORLD OF SOCIAL MEDIA AND ITS COVERAGE AND HOW IT'S SKEWING SO MANY FACT-BASED ISSUES.

THANK YOU.

>> A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> WELL, JUST MOMENTS AGO, WE SAW THE FIRST PICTURES OF FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER AT THE TRIBUTE SERVICE FOR HIS WIFE, FORMER FIRST LADY ROSALYNN CARTER.

JIMMY CARTER TURNED 99 IN OCTOBER.

HE AND ROSALYNN WERE MARRIED 77 YEARS AGO.

AND LATER, WE WILL SPEAK TO JAMES FALLOWS, WHO WAS CARTER'S FORMER SPEECH WRITER IN THE '70s AND REMAINED A CLOSE FRIEND.

>>> I KNOW A STORY OF A MAN CENTRAL TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT WHOSE NAME YOU MAY HAVE NEVER HEARD.

BAYARD RUSTIN WAS A KEY ORGANIZER OF THE 1966 MARCH ON WASHINGTON, A CONFIDANTE OF MARTIN LUTHER KING JR., AND A TIRELESS ADVOCATE FOR EQUALITY.

HE WAS ALSO OPENLY GAY.

BARACK AND MICHELLE OBAMA ARE WORKING TO RESTORE THE CIVIL RIGHT LEGEND'S RIGHTFUL PLACE IN HISTORY WITH THEIR NEW NETFLIX FILM CALLED "RUSTIN."

IT STARS COLEMAN DOMINGO IS GETTING RAVE REVIEWS FOR HIS PERFORMANCE.

AND HERE HE IS SPEAKING WITH HARRY SRINIVAS IAN.

>> FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW WHO BAYARD RUSTIN, YOU PLAY HIM, YOU DID THE HOMEWORK.

WHO WAS HE?

>> BAYARD RUSTIN WAS A YOUNG QUAKER FROM WEST CHESTER, PENNSYLVANIA.

HE WAS A YOUNG COMMUNIST AT A TIME.

HE PLAYED THE LAWSUIT.

HE SAID ELIZABETHAN LOVE SONGS.

HE WAS A STRATEGIC MIND AND GREAT ORGANIZER.

AND IN 1963, HE DID THE MONUMENTAL TASK OF WHAT HE AND A GROUP CALLED YOUNG ANGELIC TROUBLE MAKERS.

THEY WERE THE ARCHITECTS OF THE MARCH ON TWA.

>> WE ARE GOING TO PUT TOGETHER THE LARGEST PROTEST IN THE HISTORY OF THIS NATION.

>> HOW BIG?

>> 100,000 PEOPLE.

>> IS HE FOR REAL?

>> A MASSIVE TWO-DAY DEMONSTRATION THAT IS GOING TO SHUT DOWN THE WHITE HOUSE AND CAPITOL HILL, MADE UP OF ANGELIC TROUBLE MAKERS OF YOURSELVES, WITH AN IDEA SO BOLD, SO INSPIRING, THE EXECUTION WILL DEMAND ALL DRAW TIGHTLY TOGETHER AND BECOME ONE.

>> WHY IS IT WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT HIM?

WHY IS IT IT'S JUST NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE IN HIGH SCHOOL HISTORY BOOKS WHEN WE DO READ ABOUT THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON?

>> WHAT I LIKE TO BELIEVE IS THAT HE IS SUCH AN IMPACT, AND HE WAS SUCH A GREAT CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST AND ORGANIZER AND STRATEGIC HUMAN, FASCINATING HUMAN GUY.

BUT I THINK HE WAS MARGINALIZED BECAUSE HE WAS OPENLY GAY.

THAT'S VERY CLEAR TO ME THAT HE WAS ALL BUT ERASED FROM THE HISTORY BOOKS AND HIS SIGNIFICANCE AND WHAT HE DID.

>> BEING OPENLY GAY IN THAT ERA IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT THING THAN BEING OPENLY GAY TODAY.

I MEAN, THERE WERE SO MANY OTHER CHALLENGES THAT HE WAS FACING KIND OF SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> WELL, THE THING IS, THIS MAN WAS FIGHTING FOR NOT ONLY CIVIL RIGHTS, BUT HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND HE WAS BEING EXACTLY WHO HE WAS IN THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, LIKE WHY I MENTIONED HE WAS YOUNG QUAKER, HE GREW UP, HIS GRANDMOTHER, THEY WERE VERY SUPPORTIVE OF HIM BEING WHO HE WAS IN THE WORLD.

THAT WAS PART OF HIS NORTH STAR.

SO HE DIDN'T THINK IT WAS SOMETHING THAT HE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF IN ANY CIVIL WAY.

BUT, WE DO KNOW AT THAT TIME, YOU KNOW, BEING OPENLY ANYTHING, BEING OPENLY GAY IN PARTICULAR CALLS TO YOUR BODY, BUT YOUR LIVELIHOOD.

YOU LOSE YOUR JOB.

THERE IS NOT ANY PROTECTIONS IN WAY.

SO THEREFORE IT HAD TO STAY SUBVERTED IN MANY WAYS.

SO I THINK THAT IS EXACTLY THAT WAS PART OF HIS STRUGGLE.

AND YET, STILL, THE ONE THING YOU COULDN'T DENY AND HOW SMART AND COURAGEOUS HE WAS, AND HOW EVERYONE RESPECTED HIM IN HIS MIND, WHICH WAS WILD.

AND THEY RESPECTED HIM.

HE WAS THE ONE WHO INSPIRED DR. KING ABOUT DR. KING'S IDEOLOGIES ABOUT PASSIVE RESISTANCE.

FROM THE TEACHING OF GANDHI AND THOREAU.

LIKE HE EVEN SAYS, THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS, YOU KNOW.

WHICH IS WILD.

YOU LOOK AT HISTORY, THE WAY HISTORY WILL SHINE THE LIGHT ON SOME AND THEN SUPPRESS OTHERS, IT'S A CASE OF THAT.

>> AS THE FILM POINTS OUT, IT'S NOT JUST THE SORT OF FOLKS YOU EXPECT TO TRY TO REPRESS HIM OR ERASE HIM, BUT IT'S PEOPLE FROM NOW, WHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER THE MORE PROGRESSIVE CORNERS OF, SAY, THE DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL MACHINE THAT DIDN'T WANT HIM TO BE THE FACE OF THIS EVENT.

THEY DIDN'T WANT THE EVENT.

>> MARTIN LUTHER KING, HE FIT A PROFILE IN MANY WAYS.

THERE WERE OTHER INCREDIBLE LEADERS AS WELL.

MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAD INCREDIBLE VOICES, YET FOR THE MOVEMENT, I THINK THE MOVEMENT WANTED TO GATHER AND SAY THIS IS EXACTLY WHO WE ARE.

THE OTHER FOLKS WHO DIDN'T FIT THAT, AND BAYARD RUSTIN WAS VERY MUCH AN OUTLIER IN EVERY SINGLE SHAPE AND FORM, THE WAY HE SPOKE, THE WAY HE MOVED THROUGH SPACES, THE WAY HIS HAIR LOOKED, THE WAY HE WAS DRESSED.

HE WAS AN OUTLIER IN EVERY SENSE OF THE TERM.

AND ALSO BAYARD WAS ALSO -- THE STRUGGLE WAS NOT ONLY WITH THE OUTSIDE FORCES LIKE PEOPLE LIKE STROM THURMOND OR HOOVER WHO WERE USING ANYTHING TO MAKE THIS MOVEMENT FALL APART.

BUT ALSO WITHIN HIS OWN -- HIS OWN BROTHERHOOD, THE NAACP IN PARTICULAR, IN OUR FILM, ADAM CLAYTON POWELL IN PARTICULAR DOES THINGS, SAYS THINGS TO DISCREDIT BAYARD RUSTIN.

BECAUSE, AS YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL ABOUT POWER IN MANY WAYS.

>> ARE THEY EXPECTING MY RESIGNATION?

>> SOME ARE, YES.

>> THEN THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIRE ME.

BECAUSE I WILL NOT RESIGN.

ON THE DAY THAT I WAS BORN BLACK, I WAS ALSO GOVERNOR GOVERNOR A HOMOSEXUAL.

THEY EITHER BELIEVE IN FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL, OR THEY DO NOT.

>> TELL ME ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP AND FRIENDSHIP WITH DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. BECAUSE IN THE FILM, IT'S PLAYED OUT IN AN INTERESTING WAY WHERE REALLY AN ALLEGATION AND AN ACCUSATION MADE ABOUT THEM IS USED TO, WELL, SILENCE HIM POLITICALLY.

>> YEAH.

THEY WERE VERY CLOSE.

THEY WERE LIKE BROTHERS.

BUT, OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO EXAMINE THIS FRIENDSHIP AND THIS SORT OF TENDERNESS BETWEEN BROTHERS WHO REALLY BELIEVED EACH OTHER'S MINDS AND BEING WAS A CHALLENGE WITH FOLKS.

THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AN OPENLY GAY MAN AND A STRAIGHT MAN.

I THINK THEY COULD NOT THINK OF ANYTHING BUT SEX IN BETWEEN.

INSTEAD OF THINKING LIKE I KNOW, FRIENDSHIP AND BROTHERHOOD, BUT BECAUSE, AGAIN, IT'S BIASES OF THE WORLD AND WHAT THEY PUT ON IT.

AND THEN, THAT WAS ALSO THREATENING TO NOT ONLY WITHIN THE MOVEMENT, BUT IT WAS THREATENING TO OUTSIDE THE MOVEMENT.

PEOPLE CAN USE IT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, AND EVEN LIE ABOUT IT.

I THINK YOU KNOW FROM WHAT I KNOW, THERE WAS A PICTURE MADE, LIKE CREATED OF, LIKE, MARTIN LUTHER KING IN THE BATHTUB AND BAYARD RUSTIN SITTING IN A CHAIR NEARBY OR SOMETHING, TO BE SUGGESTIVE, TO SEE IF IT CAN BE USED LIKE DISCREDIT BOTH OF THEM, TO BRING DOWN THE MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

THERE IS A LOT OF FORCES, AS MUCH AS PEOPLE ARE COMING TOGETHER FOR THE FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS, THERE WERE MANY FORCES THAT WERE TRYING TO MAKE IT FALL APART, WITHIN THE PARTIES AND OUTSIDE OF IT AS WELL.

SO I THINK -- FROM WHAT I KNEW, AND THE WAY THAT AMEL AMIN AND I PLAYED IT, HE IS BEAUTIFUL.

AND HE IS PLAYING MARTIN SORT OF AS A YOUNG MAN WHO DOESN'T HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT JUST YET.

SO YOU SEE THE RELATIONSHIP THAT THEY HAD OF TEACHER AND STUDENT, WHICH IS WHAT WE WANT TO EXPERIENCE.

AND THEN ALSO SEE HOW THE TENDERNESS BETWEEN THESE TWO MEN THAT ONE WOULD NEVER REALLY IMAGINE, THE TENDERNESS BETWEEN THESE TWO.

THEY HAD TO BE INTIMATE TO REALLY SUPPORT EACH OTHER FOR THE FIGHT FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.

THEY HAD TO.

SO THAT'S WHAT WE WANTED TO EXPLORE.

INTIMATE AND THE LOVING BROTHERHOOD SENSE.

YOU KNOW?

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE PLAYING SOMEONE LIKE BAYARD RUSTIN WHEN YOU ARE ALSO A LEFT-HANDED BLACK GAY MAN WHO WOULD BE 51 WHEN YOU WERE ACTING THIS ROLE.

>> THE SIMILARITIES ARE STAGGERING.

AND THEN THE DIFFERENCE ARE ALSO PROFOUND.

BUT WHAT WE MEET IN THE MIDDLE FEELS SO SPECIAL AND IT FEELS LIKE THE RIGHT THING AND THE RIGHT TIME.

BAYARD RUSTIN, PLAYING HIM CAME ALONG AT THIS PERFECT TIME IN MY LIFE AND CAREER WHERE I FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, IT'S TAKEN 32 YEARS OF WORK TO POUR INTO A CHARACTER LIKE THIS AND TO LEAD A FILM LIKE THIS.

THIS IS -- HE HAS SO MUCH SIZE AND SO MUCH PURPOSE AND INTENT.

HE GAVE HIS LIFE INTO THE FIGHT AND THE STRUGGLE FOR CIVIL RIGHTS.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT MANY PEOPLE CAN'T SAY.

PEOPLE WERE ACTIVISTS WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT.

BUT THIS PERSON WAS LIKE AN ACTIVIST ALWAYS, EVEN WHEN HE WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, PROTESTING LUNCHES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT, DEDICATION.

SO IT'S A PROFOUND PRIVILEGE.

BECAUSE I THINK EVEN AS I FIND MYSELF AS AN ARTIST, FINDING EVEN MORE MINDFULNESS AND INTENTION WITH WHAT I'M DOING IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY IN THIS PHASE OF MY CAREER.

I FEEL SO BLESSED AND SO HONORED THAT I GET TO SHARE WITH FOLKS THIS MAN WHO IS SUCH A PERSONAL HERO TO THE ENTIRE WORLD.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLE HONOR.

>> WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN ABOUT HIM?

BECAUSE AS WE JUST DISCUSSED, IT'S -- HIS HISTORY IS NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

>> WELL, I STUMBLED ON BAYARD RUSTIN IN COLLEGE.

NOT EVEN IN A CLASS OR COURSE.

I JOINED THE AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDENT UNION, BECAUSE I WAS VERY CURIOUS ABOUT DISCOVERING MORE MY HISTORY, HAVING MORE, I DON'T KNOW, CAMARADERIE.

SO I JOINED THE STUDENT UNION.

AND WE WERE HAVING A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AND THEN HIS NAME CAME UP, SORT OF AS A FOOTNOTE.

BECAUSE I THINK A FEW THINGS CAME UP, LIKE OH, LAKER, WEST CHESTER, PENNSYLVANIA, OPENLY GAY, ORGANIZED THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON.

I WAS WAIT, WHAT?

AND EVEN HE SANG LOVE SONGS, PLAYED THE LAWSUIT.

WAIT, WHO IS THIS PERSON?

AND HOW COME I DON'T KNOW ABOUT HIM?

THAT'S STRANGE.

I'M FROM PENNSYLVANIA.

BUT ALSO, THIS IS A PROFOUND HUMAN.

WHY DON'T WE KNOW HIS STORY?

AND THEN THE MORE DIGGING I DID, I FINALLY REALIZED.

OH, BECAUSE HE WAS OPENLY GAY.

>> AND WHOEVER HAS DIRECT DEALINGS WITH MR. HOOVER, LET HIM KNOW THAT ON AUGUST 28th, BLACK, WHITE, YOUNG, OLD, RICH, WORKING CLASS, POOR, WILL DESCEND ON WASHINGTON, D.C., AND THERE IS NOTHING HE CAN DO TO STOP IT.

>> THE PACE AT WHICH THE MARCH ON WASHINGTON WAS ORGANIZED SEEMS STAGGERING ON SO MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS, EVEN WITHOUT KIND OF RACIAL CHALLENGES THAT WE MIGHT FACE TODAY TO TRY TO PULL TOGETHER 100,000 HUMANS TO ONE LOCATION WHEN NOT EVERYBODY CAN AFFORD TO FLY.

THERE IS LAYER UPON LAYER.

AND AS I LOOK AT IT, AND THEY DID IT IN SEVEN WEEKS?

>> OH, YEAH.

LET'S ALL REMEMBER, THEY DID IT WITHOUT SOCIAL MEDIA.

THEY DID IT WITHOUT CLICKING.

IT WAS REALLY GRASSROOTS ORGANIZING AT ITS BEST.

AND THEY DID IT IN LESS THAN -- IN ABOUT SEVEN WEEKS' TIME.

THAT'S OUTSTANDING.

SO THE IDEA OF THIS STRATEGIST AND THIS MIND.

HE WAS WE CAN GALVANIZE AND GET ALL THESE GROUPS, WHETHER IT'S CLC OR NAACP.

HE WAS OUTSIDE IN HIS THINKING, WHICH IS GREAT.

AND ALSO, HE WORKED WITH A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE, BECAUSE I THINK HE ALSO PREFERRED WORKING WITH YOUNG PEOPLE.

THEY'RE NOT RIGID.

THEY BELIEVE IN POSSIBILITY.

THEY BELIEVE IN THE UNEXPECTED.

THEY'RE LIKE YES, LET'S GO ON A LEDGE AND BELIEVE THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY GET THIS DONE, AND THEY DID IT.

BUT THEY ALSO HARNESSED AND GALVANIZED UNIONS AND COALITIONS, WHICH IS SOMETHING THEY UNDERSTOOD TO GATHER PEOPLE AND INVITE THE UNIONS TO BE A PART OF THIS.

EVERYONE IS PART OF THIS FIGHT IN SOME FORM.

THOSE ARE THINGS AND TACTICS THAT HE KNEW.

VERY STRATEGIC, VERY DETAILED.

HE KNEW HE COULD GET IT DONE.

>> WHAT WAS TOUGH AS AN ACTOR?

GOING THROUGH ALL OF THE MATERIAL, SEEING PICTURES OF HIM, SEEING MAYBE VIDEO OF HIM IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

WHAT DID YOU PICK UP ON?

WHAT WAS THE HARDEST FOR YOU?

WAS IT HIS PHYSICALITY?

WAS IT THE ACCENT?

>> YOU KNOW, I'VE ALWAYS DONE WORK WHEN IT COMES TO ACCENT WORK, PHYSICAL WORK.

I COME FROM THE THEATER.

SO I THINK THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF WHAT I DO.

AND I'M A BIT OF A SHAPE SHIFTER.

I KNOW THAT, BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S WHAT I LIKE TO FULLY EMBODY A CHARACTER IN EVERY SINGLE WAY.

SO THOSE THINGS I KNEW HOW TO BUILD, AND I'M VERY RIGOROUS IN MY WORK.

SO I JUST WORK AT IT AND WORK AT IT FOR HOURS AND HOURS.

BECAUSE I WANT TO REALLY HONORED A GET IT RIGHT, AND THEN RECEDE.

I DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO SEE THE WORK.

YOU JUST SEE THE PERSON.

THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN MY GOAL.

>> WHAT KIND OF HOMEWORK ARE YOU ABLE TO DO?

WHAT REMAINS IN THE ARCHIVES?

WHAT KINDS OF DATA WERE YOU ABLE TO PULL UP?

>> THE STRANGEST THING IS THERE IS A LOT, WHICH IS GREAT.

YEAH, THERE IS BOOKS ON HIS WRITINGS.

I THINK WRITING PEOPLE'S LETTERS ARE A GREAT KEY TO THEIR MIND AND THE WAY THEY THINK AND THE WAY THEY FEEL.

YOU CAN FIND A LETTER BETWEEN HE AND DR. KING.

YOU CAN FIND SOME INTERVIEWS AND SOME DEBATES.

AND WHETHER HIS DEBATES WERE SUCCESSFUL OR NOT.

BUT YOU WATCH HIM WORK.

YOU WATCH THE WAY HE SPEAKS, WHICH IS ACTUALLY ABOUT THREE OCTAVES HIGHER THAN MINE IN PITCH.

THE WAY HE MOVES HIS BODY THROUGH SPACES, WHICH IS VERY SORT OF FLUID AND FANTASTIC, HIS FINGERS ALWAYS MOVE LIKE BIRDS.

THE WAY HE SMOKES.

SO YOU CAN FIND A LOT.

>> YOU WERE ABLE TO MEET WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE WHO KNEW BAYARD.

HE PASSED AWAY IN 1987, INCLUDING ONE OF HIS PARTNERS, ORGANIZERS WHO KNEW HIM.

HOW DO THEY REMEMBER HIM TODAY?

>> OH, MAN, I WAS JUST TEXTING.

I TEXTED ROCHELLE HOLLOW WITS ALL THE TIME.

AND I'M MEETING WITH WALTER NICK FOR LUNCH, WHO WAS BAYARD'S PARTNER.

AND THEY ALL REMEMBER HIM -- FIRST OF ALL, THE THING I MUST SAY BECAUSE IT'S ON MY HEART, THEY SAID THAT THEY'VE BEEN PEOPLE CALLING THEM.

AND I THINK IT FEELS LIKE BAYARD IS ALIVE AGAIN.

SO PEOPLE CALLING.

OH, MY GOSH, THAT MOMENT IN PARTICULAR WHEN COLEMAN PUTS DOWN HIS CIGARETTE AND STOMPS IT OUT, I WITNESSED THAT MANY TIMES.

BAYARD DID THAT.

DID YOU KNOW THAT?

NO.

SHE SAID THERE IS SOMETHING.

SHE SAYS SHE IS NOT A SPIRITUAL PERSON, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING SPIRITUAL ABOUT THE PORTRAYAL.

IT FEELS LIKE WE'RE CALLING EACH OTHER.

THAT'S WHAT THEY FEEL.

THEY FEEL VERY PROUD OF THE FILM.

THEY FEEL PROUD THAT HIS STORY IS OUT THERE, JUST LEGACY AND HIS IMPORTANCE IS OUT IN THE WORLD.

BECAUSE I THINK THEY'VE ALWAYS LOOKED AT HIM AS SUCH A -- HE WAS ALWAYS THEIR MOUNT RUSHMORE.

AND WE MARVELIZE HIM WITH THE FILM.

BUT WE ALSO MAKE SURE HE IS HUMAN.

HE IS NOT A PERFECT PERSON.

HE IS KIND OF MESSY AT TIMES IN HIS PRIVATE LIFE, AND THAT'S ALL TO SHOW A REAL COOL HUMAN BEING.

THEY'RE VERY HAPPY.

AND THAT MAKES ME HAPPY.

BECAUSE MORE THAN ANY CRITICISM OF THE FILM IN ANY SHAPE, WAY OR FORM, I FEEL LIKE I NEEDED TO KNOW THAT THEY KNEW THAT I TOOK CARE OF THEM MORE THAN ANYBODY.

>> HE WAS POSTHUMOUSLY GIVEN THE PRESIDENTIAL MEDAL OF FREEDOM, AND PRESIDENT OBAMA AND MICHELLE OBAMA ARE PART OF THE PRODUCING TEAM OF THIS.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF IF THEY'VE SEEN IT?

>> THEY HAVE SEEN IT, LOVED IT, CLAPPED FOR IT, INTRODUCED ME TO THE PBCU FIRST LOOK FILM FESTIVAL BECAUSE OF IT.

THEY ARE SUCH CHAMPIONS OF THIS FILM.

AND BAYARD RUSTIN'S LEGACY.

THEY COULDN'T BE MORE LOVELY AND WONDERFUL WITH MAKING SURE THAT BAYARD RUSTIN IS ON EVERYONE'S LIPS.

>> WHAT IT'S MEAN TO YOU AS A PERSON AND AS AN ACTOR THAT YOU GOT TO PLAY SOMEBODY WHO HAS BECOME A PERSONAL HERO TO YOU?

DOES IT HAVE, I DON'T KNOW, ANXIETY OR STRESS TO WANTING TO GET IT RIGHT BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING YOU LOOKED UP TO?

HOW DO YOU PROCESS THIS?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT?

IT WAS WILD.

WHEN I WAS FIRST OFFERED THIS ROLE, I THOUGHT I COULD GO ONE OR TWO WAYS.

I COULD BE TERRIFIED, OR I DON'T HAVE TIME TO BE TERRIFIED.

I HAVE TO GET DOWN TO WORK.

THAT'S WHAT I FEEL.

I HAVE TO GET DOWN TO WORK, AND I HAVE TO WORK EXCEPTIONALLY HARD, BECAUSE I KNEW THAT'S WHAT MY HERO DID.

HE WORKED EXCEPTIONALLY HARD, EVERY SINGLE DAY TO MAKE THIS COUNTRY A LITTLE BETTER.

AND SO MY JOB WAS JUST TO STAY FOCUSED IN ON THAT.

I FEEL LIKE I'VE BEEN GIVEN SUCH A GIFT, ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW.

WHEN A FILM LIKE THIS IS OUT IN THE WORLD, I THINK WE NEED TO RALLY THE SPIRITS OF PEOPLE AND LET ORDINARY PEOPLE KNOW THAT THEY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE JUST BY SHOWING UP AND BEING A PART OF IT.

I THINK WE NEED IT MORE THAN EVER.

I FEEL VERY, VERY BLESSED THAT IT'S OUT RIGHT NOW, THAT WHEN PEOPLE GET TO KNOW WHO BAYARD RUSTIN IS, I'M THE FACE OF BAYARD RUSTIN.

THAT'S BEAUTIFUL.

I FEEL LIKE I KNOW FOR SURE THIS GOES DOWN INTO MY PERSONAL -- MY LEGACY.

THIS IS A LEGACY WORK.

AND I KNOW IT IS.

I LOOK FORWARD TO, YOU KNOW, CHILDREN AND CHILDREN UPON CHILDREN LEARNING ABOUT BAYARD RUSTIN AND KNOWING THAT THEY THINK OF ME AT THE SAME TIME.

>> ACTOR COLEMAN DOMINGO WHO PLAYS "RUSTIN."

IT'S ON NETFLIX NOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, SAYING GOODBYE TO FORMER FIRST LADY ROSALYNN CARTER.

U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN AND FIRST LADY JILL BIDEN, ALONG WITH FORMER PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON AND FORMER FIRST LADIES ARE ATTENDING CARTER'S PRIVATE TRIBUTE SERVICE IN ATLANTA.

HER HUSBAND, 99-YEAR-OLD FORMER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER IS ALSO THERE.

JAMES FALLOWS WAS CARTER'S FORMER CHIEF SPEECH WRITER IN THE '70s AND REMAINED A CLOSE FRIEND.

HE JOINS ME NOW.

JAMES, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THIS IS REALLY A REFLECTION ON THE LIFE OF ROSALYNN CARTER, AND WHAT A LIFE IT WAS.

A LIFETIME PARTNER TO HER HUSBAND, MARRIED FOR 77 YEARS, THE LONGEST WHITE HOUSE MARRIAGE IN U.S. HISTORY.

THE BUSHES THOUGHT THEY COULD TRUMP THEM, BUT NO.

THEY GOT CLOSE BUT COULDN'T.

TALK ABOUT YOUR FONDEST MEMORIES OF ROSALYNN.

>> I'LL SAY IT IS FITTING FOR BOTH OF THE CARTERS.

THEY'VE HAD SUCH A LONG TIME OUT OF OFFICE, BY FAR THE LONGEST TIME AS POST PRESIDENT AND POST FIRST LADY, MORE THAN 40 YEARS, FOR PEOPLE TO COME TO APPRECIATE THEM IN A WAY THAT WAS NOT SO MUCH THE CASE PERHAPS IN THE LATE 1970s WHEN THEY WERE IN OFFICE AND THE EARLY 1980s AFTER THIS EMOTIONALLY AND POLITICALLY DEVASTATING LOSS FOR THEM TO RONALD REAGAN.

AND I THINK THAT WHAT HAS BECOME CLEAR IS BOTH THE WAY THAT FORMER PRESIDENT CARTER HIMSELF HAS INVENTED A NEW ROLE FOR THE POST PRESIDENCY AND FOUND A WAY TO HAVE PEOPLE EVEN RECONSIDER WHAT HE DID IN OFFICE AND HELD THE ROLE OF ROSALYNN CARTER, BOTH AS HIS PARTNER ALL OF THEIR LIVES AND AS THEIR OWN INDEPENDENT SPOKESPERSON FOR MENTAL HEALTH AND MANY OTHER ISSUES, HOW THEY ARE I THINK NOW SEEING IN FULL DIMENSIONS THAT THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN IF THEY HAD -- IF WE WERE OBSERVING THESE PASSINGS 20 YEARS AGO.

THE FIRST TIME I MET ROSALYNN CARTER WAS IN THE SUMMER OF 1976.

I HAD STARTED WRITING FOR -- WORKING ON THE CARTER SPEECH WRITING TEAM.

>> WAS BASED IN ATLANTA.

WE STAYED SOMETIMES IN THE BEST WESTERN AMERICAS HOTEL.

AND WE CAME TO THAT FAMOUS HOUSE IN PLAINS, GEORGIA, THE SAME ONES YOU'RE SEEING IN THE NEWS NOW.

THERE WAS RALPH NADER, WHO HAD BEEN A PATRON OF MINE, I HAD WORKED FOR HIM ON SEVERAL PROJECTS, WAS COMING DOWN TO HAVE HIS MEETING WITH JIMMY CARTER, CANDIDATE JIMMY CARTER.

I WAS SORT OF AN INTERMEDIARY BETWEEN THEM.

AND THERE WAS A FAMOUS SOFTBALL GAME BETWEEN THE CARTER STAFF AND THE PRESS IN WHICH RALPH NADER WAS THE UMPIRE FOR THE SOFTBALL GAME.

AND JIMMY CARTER WAS THE WICKED UNDERHAND PITCHER.

AND SOMETIMES JIMMY CARTER WAS UNHAPPY WITH RALPH NADER'S CALLS OF BALLS AND STRIKES.

BUT ROSALYNN CARTER WAS THERE AS SORT OF THE CALMING INFLUENCE TO KEEP EVERYBODY IN LINE.

AND SHE SIMULTANEOUSLY WAS VERY CLEARLY A PERSON JIMMY CARTER, THEN AHEAD IN THE RACE FOR PRESIDENT, LISTENED TO MOST AND TRUSTED MOST, AND ALSO THE GRACIOUS SMALL-TOWN HOST SERVING RALPH NADER LEMONADE ON THE PORCH.

SO IT WAS A VIVID INTRODUCTION TO HER.

>> I THINK AS TIME PASSES, THERE'S COME MORE OF AN APPRECIATION FOR HIS ADMINISTRATION, THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION.

BUT IT HAD FOR A LONG TIME BEEN KNOWN FOR TUMULT INTERNATIONALLY AND DOMESTICALLY, SPECIFICALLY ECONOMICALLY, AND THE IRAN HOSTAGE CRISIS.

I WONDER HOW THE TWO OF THEM CAME TO TERMS WITH, OR IF THEY EVER DID, WITH THE LABEL OF HAVING THE BEST POST PRESIDENCY AND THE CONTRIBUTIONS THEY MADE TO THE WORLD, TO THEIR COMMUNITY IN THE YEARS AFTER.

>> SO NONE OF US EXCEPT FOR A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE IN HISTORY CAN KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE TO LOSE A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

I THINK THAT IS A PROFOUND BLOW FOR AN INCUMBENT THAT IS REALLY HARD TO IMAGINE.

SO THEY ENCOUNTERED THAT.

AND FOR A LONG TIME, JIMMY CARTER WAS A SHORTHAND AMONG DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS FOR A, QUOTE, FAILED ADMINISTRATION.

BUT I THINK IT IS WORTH RECOGNIZING, NUMBER ONE, THE ENORMOUS POWER OF FAITH IN BOTH OF THE CARTERS' LIVES, THAT EVERY MODERN POLITICIAN PROFESSES TO BE CHURCH GOING OR HAVE A RELIGIOUS FAITH.

IT REALLY WAS AND IS THE ANIMATING PART OF THEIR LIFE.

I THINK THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THERE WAS GOD'S JUSTICE THAT WOULD BE RECKONED IN THE LONG-TERM.

AND MOST AMERICANS WERE BORN IN 1984 OR AFTERWARDS.

SO MOST AMERICANS HAVE NO MEMORY OF JIMMY CARTER AS PRESIDENT.

THEY REMEMBER HIM AS HIM AND ROSALYNN CARTER AS THESE BENEVOLENT PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD WINNING NOBEL PEACE PRIZES, ERADICATING GUINEA WORM, MONITORING ELECTIONS IN VARIOUS PLACES.

SO I THINK IT MUST BE GRATIFYING FOR THEM TO HAVE BEEN RECOGNIZED IN THIS STAGE OF LIFE FOR ALL THE GOOD THINGS THEY DID IN OFFICE AND AFTER OFFICE.

>> WELL, SHE NO DOUBT WAS A TRAILBLAZER IN HER OWN RIGHT.

CLASS VALEDICTORIAN, TURNED DOWN HIS FIRST PROPOSAL SO SHE COULD FINISH COLLEGE.

SHE PROMISED HER FATHER SHE WOULD.

SHE ULTIMATELY GAVE IN AND MARRIED JIMMY AND WAS THERE WITH HIM ALL ALONG THE WAY.

I THINK IT'S SOMETIMES A CLICHE TO SAY THAT THE WOMAN MADE THE MAN.

BUT JIMMY CARTER, I WOULD IMAGINE WOULD SAY HE WOULD NEVER HAVE ACCOMPLISHED WHAT HE DID IN LIFE WITHOUT HAVING HIS ROSIE THERE AT HIS SIDE.

JAMES FALLOWS, THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT HER INCREDIBLE LEGACY.

>> I'D BE HONORED.

THANK YOU.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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♪♪