Following is an AZPM original production Hello and welcome to this latest edition of The Press Room from the radio studios of AZPM I'm your host Steve Goldstein a lot of topics on the table today many of them revolving around Trump administration immigration policies and the panelists here to discuss those topics with me or Yana Kunichoff of AZ Luminaria Paul Ingram of the Tucson Sentinel Tony Perkins of AZPM and Tim Steller of the Arizona Daily Star.

Thank you all for being here today I want to start off with Donald Trump sending 1500 troops to the US Mexico border Tim first of all, do you recall that he tried to do something similar in 2017?

Oh, he's not the only one a lot of a lot of governors a lot of presidents have sent troops to the border over the years Usually in recent years.

It's been in support roles so maybe they're back at headquarters with border patrol at the station helping them out maybe with intelligence or That kind of thing or maybe in the in the detention center Yana it seemed though and we know that and as Tim said is correct that we've seen governors even governors from from Somewhat blue states or at least those in from Democratic Party But why are we giving this so many headlines?

Such an important topic Is it because it it rests in with some of the worries and concerns a lot of people have about the administration?

Yeah, I mean I- A lot of what the Trump administration put forward was promised action on the border, so Even though I believe it was in December 2023 that Katie Hobbs sent Arizona National Guard to the border I'm also getting like a support role to work on fentanyl or kind of other drug enforcement issues I think that we're getting this is getting a lot of attention because it's seen as fulfilling a promise even though I think it's like really unclear what the reality of that will look like here Yeah, Tony how significant do you think this particular number is at this particular time again?

Just a couple of days after the inauguration all right.

It's not so much about You know sending troops to the border, but what are they going to do when they get there?

Are they just gonna sit around and in trucks and that guy think are they going to take a more active role?

Are they just gonna be flying helicopters around?

And and what are they going to do when they do that?

That's the big question and once we find out What their activities are going to be that's going to be the real story well That's interesting too because the idea of potentially having planes used to deport folks who are in the custody of CBP and in the San Diego El Paso sectors that's all tied together, too I think that's probably the most interesting thing and the biggest change from the Trump administration I mean for the last 20 years or so we've seen Border Patrol being backed by some element of the Department of Defense Usually National Guard troops and a lot of states have sent like small helicopter crews to fly patrols It's a good way for them to train they can fly at night They can fly in remote areas, but it's also of course this cross-border thing that though the change is using actually military air command to actually fly people in C-17s or whatever to other countries with some you know part of a relationship with State Department That's new now.

We've long flown people to back to their home countries But we've relied on ICE air immigration customs enforcement flying their own planes So that really radically expands it the biggest holdup for those things has always been whether or not those countries agree to take people back So how are they going to make that work?

You'll probably see the Trump administration trying to use economics other kinds of security agreements other kinds of things is to kind of bully people That's taking people back.

Yeah, and I think that Department of Defense point is an interesting one.

What do you guys think of that?

Well, yeah for sure He's gonna try to use or he is already using as whatever's and at his hands You know and the Department of Defense of course he's commander in chief, so there's a lot he can do There are some limits and there are some precedents that Have held presidents back in the past in 1997 there was a case where Marines Shot at 18 year old boy in Texas who was a shepherd He had a gun and he fired his gun didn't know the Marines were there They were doing a drug patrol and they thought they were he was shooting at them so it's that sort of thing that is Soldiers on the border who are actually trying to interdict people that gets a little more dicey And I wouldn't be surprised to see it though.

Well, and I'm cynical Yeah, that I mean we are this is broadcast on a PBS and NPR station But is this partly though to the folks who watch Fox News or Newsmax to see the images of okay President Trump is backing this up because we're actually seeing we're seeing troops Even if there were troops there before that the Biden administration or Katie Hobbs sent down there.

Yeah, I mean it's a visual So you know the yeah, yeah, I think that there's like two things happening to to me There's two things happening in the US right now And one is this like high level like kind of rhetorical battle of like what this country looks like what kind of genders people can use Like this idea of like what we can talk about how people see and understand the country And then I think there's often a different story of what is happening on the ground and how people at the border You know border communities we live in like a really bi-national city are actually Experiencing are actually experiencing their life there, and I don't think those are necessarily related always to me Yeah, Tony optics, but more than that, you know The optics are also going to depend a lot on how much time how much time are the troops gonna be spending down there What's it gonna look like six months from now eight months from now ten months from now and we look at that and then what?

What good did they do has there been a lot of improvements has there been any change at all?

And and that's where some of the political fallout happened there one interesting thing that just Came back to me is that when Trump was last in office There was a year.

I don't know if I was 2018 or so when there were two deaths both suicides, I believe of Soldiers I believe they were soldiers.

They were military service members who were deployed here in southern Arizona I don't know, you know that you sometimes leave lose track of the fact that these are people these soldiers or service members who are out there being told to do a job and Sometimes it can be pretty unclear or pretty boring or pretty depressing depending on their condition.

Well, it's important to note I mean a lot of times these are National Guard troops Those are people who have regular jobs nine to five jobs that they've left They have mortgage to pay and all of a sudden they're sort of stuck out here in the desert waiting around for something They're on a surveillance or you know, I remember when they were in Nogales They were you know, there were guys taking care of horses and there were other guys in the motor pool They were you know pulling tires off of Border Patrol trucks So if you're somebody who's been doing that for six months and leaving living in a hotel room getting a per diem Yeah, you can see how that that stresses people out It's I mean National Guard is supposed to be mostly temporary So the idea of it extending for long deployments and we saw this with like them, you know For Iraq Afghanistan wars we use National Guard really to fulfill roles.

They're not necessarily built for that's right The politicians make the decisions with the people on the ground whether civilians or otherwise are really putting the crosshairs there Yeah and I think that that's like a really good point about the actual experience of people who are in these Institutions and how much oversight there is of them and also I think when there's a big hiring push like What that means about who's brought on and I think also just like from talking to aid organizations I think this is something we won't see but it has been something that has happened now for decades But I think people will probably still try to migrate to the US and those people will be pushed further into the desert the more Enforcement there is on the border and that often means that people die or are more likely to die And so I just think that there is these dynamics that are happening that are separate from the headlines Yeah, Tim one thing that could cause Cause Tucson some heartburn to some extent is the DOJ's gonna investigate officials who won't enforce immigration policies And we don't necessarily know what that looks like this memo called on US attorneys to investigate and possibly prosecute local officials Who stand in the way of immigration authorities and I we already heard from Sheriff Nanos who he has talked about immigration policies generally Even on this one.

It's very much like well, wait a second My folks don't want to be CPB agents and I could run for Congress and am I going to that sort of thing?

Yeah, I think there's a couple ways to slice in both people could get both sides could get what they want here There's there's kind of active resistance Which is I think what the Justice Department is most focused on that is trying to stand in the way somehow physically or otherwise of Immigration enforcement and then there's more passive resistance, which is like what you're describing Sheriff Nanos saying no I don't want my deputies used in immigration enforcement in addition one of the keys with the Sheriff's Department is the jail and the extent to which they hold people for ICE or other entities to come pick them up.

That's a Maybe the area where I foresee the most I don't know the rubber meat in the road on this conflict Yeah, Tony the term sanctuary cities, of course has to come up in this all the time How do you think this could affect Tucson or Pima County going forward?

Well, there's gonna be a lot of discussion about In Tucson and other cities too about weaponizing the Department of Justice Justice We've heard about that a lot during the campaigns and everything and now all of a sudden we're talking about Sheriff Nanos being having a target on him along with the you know mayors and and others in the other sanctuary cities And in your status to pack saying well, wait, wait just a second, you know That's something that we're supposed to be getting away from But it works from one side and not for the other well Tim mentioned both sides the idea that to be weaponizing on each side Just you know if the DOJ is gonna be going after County attorneys County sheriffs, etc.

That doesn't seem like a smooth path to actually having immigration policy that works for anybody No, I mean, I think though what they'll if they really push I mean they're gonna end up in an illegal fight over the 10th amendment I mean, there's really big limitations to how much the federal government can coerce somebody to do something Especially state and local officials and we've we've had Dozens of legal fights about that and really limited how much the federal government can say you must do this Especially on federal laws and immigration being of course something that the federal government has long said is our is their purview So to suddenly order TPD TPD Officers to you know, help them they they can't really do that But I think Tim's right that what they'll probably really do is go after the idea of a jail has somebody in ICE issues a detainer They're going to demand that the jail holds somebody and that puts the jail into a bad spot I mean ultimately if somebody says hey my due process I was released and you're I'm still here You're violating my due process That falls on the county and the county is gonna want to not be in that situation Lots of other cities and counties have been in that situation and they've actually lost money They've been sued successfully because they have people waiting for ICE to show up Yeah Yeah, I think that there's just a really interesting, you know The Trump administration has also pulled back from some of the DOJ's oversight of local police departments at the same time as it is I think saying that the DOJ will be obviously be looking more closely at police departments that don't follow in line with its policies And I think the other thing that's interesting to think about I lived in Chicago for a long time It is a sanctuary city that law came to pass from a lot of organizing on the ground So I think absolutely the county jail is going to be where the rubber meets the road And also I think a city that has those kind of policies has a lot of people who have spent decades Organizing in immigrant communities and I think actually what they do now Matters as much as whether maybe a local police officer Well, what about this concern that undocumented migrants might be in Formally protected areas of either schools or places of worship and that may be changing as well Yeah, I mean I've already gotten what turned out to be false tips of ICE at schools and not not locally But in other cities and because I used to be an education reporter And I think that those have turned out to be false But like the fear that they've created is really real and so I think what I've seen when we see that fear is Parents who are more worried about asking for food aid from school or who are less likely to talk to teachers I go to a parent teacher day.

So I think the fabric of some of the communities That are non-citizens in the US kind of depends on engaging with institutions like schools and churches And I think people are gonna be more afraid now and I think that's part of I mean that's sort of the one of the Trump administrations Wants it wants as they say shock at all, right to steal a phrase from the Iraq war You know The idea is we're just going to hammer people so hard that they stop fighting and that we can do what we want and that is part of this and I think they really want to have some fear and You know have to see how organizations are able to kind of make sure people feel okay about the things that are happening They understand their rights probably understand their relationships with what you know What the ICE can do what ICE really can't do and how that's gonna work with local enforcement is gonna be really important Make sure people understand exactly how this is gonna work in the through the future And it's also a matter of spreading this Pain around this issue to all sorts of people who are not accustomed to this pressure school teachers You know county jail operators, you know people who say well, you know, this wasn't supposed to affect me directly But now it's extremely affecting people who probably aren't you really used to that Tim I'm really trying to think in perspective again when when Donald Trump's first term happened a lot of people in the same realm were terrified No question, but there was also the concept at least for those of us who follow the politics of it So closely that well, there were some guardrails not everyone not every Republican in the Senate or the House was necessarily bowing down to him The members of his cabinet were like, okay, we like some of this Maybe not others it almost feels that there aren't guardrails right now.

Does that make people more worried?

Well, I think as Paul said that that's an image that they want to project But I do think that there's a battle.

I mean from what I've read and seen there is a conflict within the administration between Over kind of how to handle the deportation idea, for example on one side Tom Homan The those I think I can't remember his title, but the czar of this operation Wanted to prioritize people who have committed crimes and have deportation orders that sort of thing He seemed to although he was rhetorically very tough have a more organized sense of like this is a priority Which is what other presidents have done Whereas on the other side Stephen Miller and people like that want this sense of Fear and for the purpose that Paul is talking about and others that yeah that people will so as a quote-unquote self-deport or hide Or what have you?

Yeah, it makes me think of what you said about the DOJ and the investigation into police departments I think about Phoenix specifically which was certainly under the radar when it comes to this But one of the things it's talked about a lot with community policing is if there's less trust in certain communities Then you won't have people actually coming in and talking to police about serious crimes because they're afraid they might get deported or something Feels like that's the same sort of thing we're seeing again Yeah I mean I think that that is real that I think for a lot of institutions and particularly policing to function you need to have People have a relationship with it And I think that these kind of policies change those change those relationships And I also think like how we understand like for example, I think a lot of crime that happens happens From people who especially like gender-based crime against women happens from intimate partners You know, but that is not necessarily like what we always read about So I think our understanding of like what is happening on the ground versus the rhetoric again I think there's that gap.

Okay, Tim another topic related to Trump immigration policies But really general Kris Mayes has got involved with this one the push to eliminate birthright citizenship We've just been temporarily blocked by a federal judge Attorney General Mayes' a number of other states got involved in this is this gonna be blue versus red as well because this yeah There's a 14th Amendment concern obviously here right?

Yeah, that's so they have these consortia states that band together and sue so Arizona joined Washington and some other Attorneys general attorneys general from these states and sued in Washington federal.

Thank you for saying attorneys general.

Yeah.

Thank you.

You got it and So, yeah, they want a early temporary restraining order the judge said it was what obvious blatantly unconstitutional what I found Surprising about the birthright citizenship order is that it says that If neither parent is a citizen or permanent resident That the child cannot be a citizen.

In other words if you are here legally on work visa for a couple of years maybe both parents are on work visas or Their students grad students at the University of Arizona that sort of thing if their child is born here They are not a citizen under this executive order.

Yeah, Tony What stands out to you about this this effort again and the in the fight against it?

Well appears to be and and we can't say for sure anymore these days that it's a slam dunk because it's an Unconstitutional thing is actually written in the Constitution And so the question is going to be are you are you going to go?

Have a fight against the Constitution as well as you know, a red versus blue blue fight And and how's that going to play politically, you know lawmakers People in Congress are going to have to choose sides on this issue, especially more than others I think well it makes me think of the infamous former State Senate president Russell Pearce who brought back the term anchor babies Right this pejorative and this almost sounds like a lot of the Trump supporters are kind of into that I mean they've we've had this argument for more than a century I mean, it's important like we had this argument in 1898.

There was a case involving a Chinese man Whose whose parents were in the United States.

He was born here He went back to China and on the way back I the immigration authority at the time said he wasn't a citizen citizen They went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court ruled that he was a citizen in in Wong Kim Are we've had this argument and we had this argument in 1898 and we keep having this argument again about who's a citizen The court at the time was really clear if you if you're a diplomat and you have a child here You can't they're not a citizen if you're an enemy of the state and you have a child here You're not a citizen otherwise the kids a citizen and the court made it really really clear and the idea of the way that people are yeah, of course Anchor babies I mean it's sort of remarkable because I mean the the people who come to the United States to have kids specifically to make them Us citizens are Russians Russians for a while were doing that and then there were people from China who were doing that It's not the people who are coming across the border US Mexico border They're not coming because they're hoping to have someone who is a citizen here and during the time that I worked in China that I worked on a couple of different stories where Chinese were going to place like Guam or you know US territories that weren't even close to the border, of course and To to have children and have those children have automatic American citizenship Yeah, I don't want to put you on the spot But the last question on this one relates to the Ninth Circuit and then the Supreme Court, you know I we're not going to predict how the Supreme Court might go on this But I mean for something as Paul mentioned that has been in discussion 1898 and then we go back to the Civil War This Supreme Court could totally upend that is that's possible, right?

I think this just tells me that I think the courts are playing a really important role right now I think in some ways they are like in some ways the first and maybe the last line of defense against what happens to some Of these policies and in the birthright citizenship case the judge was appointed by Reagan Like I think it's just interesting how people came to those positions.

But yeah, I mean, I think that's that's what we have to watch Tim briefly on that Just okay Well, maybe we should talk about the one of the things about cases is how Native Americans are also treated to citizenship You know one thing that came out as they were arguing 1923 by the way.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes exactly very very good You know also how their relationship is set and and part of the court was pushing around this idea Because of course they're part of the tribes And so are they also US citizens and previously the courts have said of course they are because they have a relationship with the United States But you know if the Fourth Amendment gets thrown out Then there's a whole bunch of people that are also their citizenship becomes up in the air to about are they citizens?

And I don't know if the court wants to open that can of worms What's the phrase subject to us?

The 14th Amendment there's a phrase that something like subject to US authority That is that you have to be and so that's the the phrase that the proponents of Trump's Birthday citizenship order are trying to exploit and say that these people are not subject to right US authority Yeah about five minutes left home I'll give you a couple of minutes really important reporting you did with asylum seekers waiting outside of Sasabe just a few hours before Donald Trump was going to be inaugurated and the experience and some of the Different nations of people are from but I wanted to focus more on the the volunteers the support effort that goes into all that and the attitude of those folks were they focused just on Supporting these migrants or were they really concerned about what's to come next?

Did you talk more about that?

Yeah, sure I mean one of the things I think is sort of striking is is how every time that when a volunteer would kind of show up They would say hello and they would say I'm a friend That was the first thing that they always kind of entered out how they introduced themselves And then it was always about kind of taking care of people, you know It was really ridiculously cold out there And so most of their effort was keeping the fire going to keep people warm And then also bringing people soup and hot chocolate It was really about kind of taking care of people and that effort has been really going on for a long in this particular Space for more than a year and it's really because people are coming across the line and they are really pushed there by smugglers They don't know where they are.

They don't quite know Exactly what but they're supposed to wait for Border Patrol.

That's really what they know and they're sort of just waiting and You know Border Patrol takes time to get out there.

I mean, it's really remote the terrain's really rugged It's 12 miles.

Yeah, you know east of Sasabe and it just it's it's it's a long drive It takes a long time and you really need to have four-wheel drive until just recently they kind of finished the road And so that effort was really about taking care of people a year ago.

I went out there.

It had rained It was cold and there was this really sense that there were there were about 80 people They were all families a lot of them had kids and they were trying to keep people from freezing to death You know, I remember that there was this one little boy he essentially said I can't really feel my feet I'm really really cold and this guy said I got you and he you know He pulled off got some socks changed the socks put them on the kid and you could watch this kid warm up You could watch him in his face He was actually more comfortable and those guys have been doing that for a year and there's really now a sense there's there's two big questions about it whether or not they're gonna be able to keep doing that because border patrol and And the Forest Service may close the road And if they do that they don't know what they're gonna do and they've been able to really help people and also kind of people come across the line and Rather than trying to keep north going north into the desert Instead kind of keeping them in one place so they can turn themselves in border patrol and ask for asylum So one other question on this it may seem absurd based on the date.

It was January 19th Were these migrants aware that how important January 20th was potentially?

They all knew that something was happening that the new president was coming.

They all knew who President Trump was but in terms of Whether or not they understood what the consequences when they're gonna be that's that's hard It's always hard to understand from from migrants perspective because they're all really different.

They have sort of different messaging They're coming They don't know they don't know the contours of US immigration law are necessarily contours of the politics What they know is is that they have someone who's in the United States who's also come and that this is the pathway they took and This is the pathway to being safe or to rejoining with their family or you know to maybe some economic benefit Maybe they get to work, but they're really there because they want to seek asylum And if you want to read that terrific story, you can find it online at the Tucson Sentinel We've got just a couple of minutes left Tim.

Let me turn to you on this.

You're my political junkie on the panel.

I'm gonna say Andy Biggs from my neck of the woods generally is presumably gonna run for governor even after Donald Trump Gave a lot of support to Karen Taylor Robson It was the runner-up to Kari Lake before but she raised a lot of money for his campaign And yet a lot of Donald Trump supporters ideologically aligned more with Andy Biggs Maybe they were supporters of January 6th and Andy Biggs We don't have confirmation but Andy Biggs clearly was a somewhat a supporter of that event maybe a great supporter of that How does all this dynamic affect things you think are you surprised that Biggs would leave a safe seat in Congress to do this?

well, I mean it's Sets up a familiar pattern, which is the the more MAGA Candidate versus the less MAGA candidate Except in this case that the twist is that Donald Trump has already endorsed what we can perceive in this Race as the less MAGA candidate, of course, he's been known to change his mind I mean, it's it's early times and and I would expect that Republican primary voters will have a lot will be very favorable toward Andy Biggs And you know, they voted against Karen Taylor Robson before in favor of Kari Lake In the last Republican primary for governor, so I don't see why it wouldn't happen again except for that Trump factor Yeah, Tony a few seconds on that any thoughts come to mind as someone who's just been involved and as a journalist for so long This seems like something that was a slam dunk for Karen Taylor Robson Andy Biggs giving up a safe congressional seat That's what keeps coming back for me.

Right again, like Tim was saying who's more MAGA and who's less MAGA?

Yeah, and you know Biggs his Opinions have been pretty much out there and it's gonna be interesting in the next couple of years Just you know among the MAGA crowd.

Well, you know Is that too far to go with Andy Biggs or do I want to have a more safe choice?

If you want to call it a safe choice.

Well, we also know coming up.

This will be the first time Arizonans will vote on a running mate as well be lieutenant governor We see if Andy Biggs tries to find some moderate Republican if there is such an animal left Tony Perkins of AZPM.

Thank you Tim Steller Arizona Daily Star, Yana Kunichoff of AZ Luminaria Paul Ingram of the Tucson Sentinel Thank you all for being here and thank you all for watching and listening to The Press Room.

We'll be back next week I'm Steve Goldstein