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♪ RHYTHMIC BRASS MUSIC ♪ Hello and welcome to this latest edition of The Press Room from the radio studios of AZPM.

I'm your host Steve Goldstein.

Coming up in the next half hour we'll discuss a number of topics including Governor Hobbs signing an executive order aimed at fighting cartels.

Also learn more about mental health care in Pima County Jail with a distinguished panel of guests, John Washington of AZ Luminaria, Hannah Cree of AZPM, Dylan Smith of the Tucson Sentinel and Alisa Reznick of KJZZ.

Thank you all for being here.

John let's start off with Governor Hobbs signing this order creating Operation Desert Guardian "to combat the cartels, stop drug smuggling and human trafficking and secure Arizona's border."

So how is Operation Desert Guardian supposed to bring all that about?

That is unclear.

We don't have any details and you know one of things that strikes me is that we've seen in the past couple years in Arizona and elsewhere a number of very similarly titled Operations, Plaza Strike, Operation Secure, Task Force Safe, things like this.

They all sort of sound like I don't know B-list action movies or something and we just don't have the details yet.

I would say that like because of it this sort of like what seems to be so far at least just posturing it seems like we're kind of like reinventing the wheel but I think it's also important to note that you know we have seen that wheels work very well but this is a strategy that we haven't seen evidence of success on.

This is going after cartels from Arizona going like basically replicating something called the kingpin strategy, which in fact has proliferated violence and hasn't really stymied the drug flow.

I mean we're still dealing with an opioid epidemic.

There's been some drop in fatalities over the past year but a lot of that is due to not supply side focus but about education availability of Narcan and things like that.

So there's a lot to be seen about what's actually going to happen.

- Alisa what stands out to you about this as someone who reports on that quite often?

(Alisa) Yeah I mean like John said you know it was kind of rolled out with very few details about what's going to happen next.

What struck me is just the you know four border counties were mentioned by name.

Hobbs said that she had talked to local sheriffs and elements of the federal government about this operation but when I talked to at least some of the folks that are in these border counties they did not know anything about this operation.

I spoke with Cochise County Sheriff Mark Dannels the day that this was released and you know you know Dannels have, Dannels and Hobbs's office have gone kind of back and forth but he did say you know like "I don't know anything about this operation.

I have not been briefed about it and if this meant to be a true partnership between the state and you know elements of local government along the border we need to be briefed.

We need to understand what's happening what our role is going to be and how we're going to see that."

I actually received a similar statement from Yuma a couple of days later saying we have not heard anything about this.

We've not been you know consulted about this and that's Sheriff Wilmot out there.

He did actually say you know that this is sort of this isn't the first time that Arizona governors have sort of done this to border counties.

He cited actually Ducey's Border Strike Force as sort of trying to put resources where they're not necessarily needed.

He also said that his county already has drug interdiction task forces of their own and so you know it's not necessary that they're closed off to the idea but that they feel that they have not been consulted.

It sounds like you know Santa Cruz County I've also reached out to Santa Cruz County and Pima County.

Santa Cruz County you know it sounds like they are going to be consulting with the Governor's office and potentially the other three on Monday so maybe we'll hear more but right now it just sounds like there's just kind of a lot of questions about what's going to happen next and also you know how it's going to interact with Operation Safe or the Safe Task Force that John mentioned earlier that was the 40 troops, National Guard troops to the border that you know even then we kind of like okay they were deployed last summer now we're not quite sure necessarily what they're doing and then Hobbs sort of had a press conference along the border describing the wins you know in terms of fentanyl busts and guns.

(Steve) Interesting so Dylan we know politicians like optics is this deeper than that?

- That remains to be seen doesn't it?

It seems like just kind of a rebranding of everything that's already been going on.

It's supposed to be a task force that coordinates in between all these local and state and federal agencies.

As you said this doesn't seem to be very coordinated at this point when nobody even knows what this is supposed to be, including the people involved.

Is this just a rebranding of Operation Safe, Hobbs's previous kind of border enforcement task force?

It sounds remarkably similar to the I don't know there were several task forces that were announced by Doug Ducey during his time in office.

Politicians love brands and slogans and maybe this will be more than posturing?

We gotta see.

- I think you know it besides the lack of coordination we see with some of the county officials there seems to be some lack of internal coordination and there's mixed messaging the the actual announcement of the press release about this executive order was called something like securing the border, but then in underneath that there was explicit messaging saying that it's not about immigration it's about combating fentanyl and cartels but you know I think the posturing is what we're actually being able to see and we don't have anything else to grasp onto at this point.

- Certainly combating fentanyl is a worthy thing to tackle.

- Is this the way to do it though?

- Well... yeah.

(Steve) Well and I don't know, John, Alisa I'm not sure have we heard how other Democrats are responding to this it seems like Governor Hobbs is trying to line up as much as she can with the Trump administration she starts her reelection bid I'm not saying she's lining completely but there's a little inconsistency of that and I wouldn't think her fellow Democrats would be too happy about that.

Have you guys had any experience with that yet?

- We've seen a lot of division I would say between Mayes approach to this new administration and Hobbs's approach.

I think you know John and I have both been at press conferences where the top question was hey what do you how are you going to respond Governor to the threat of mass deportations for example in Arizona communities how will you respond if the government wants to force local jurisdictions or the state of Arizona to take part in you know in in immigration operations and she really like was very careful talking about that, I think the last time that that came up was when she was talking about operation or the Safe Task Force down in Nogales and so I think it's just a lot of I think it would still be a lot of tiptoeing and even in the verbiage that we saw with this most recent unrolling of the operation she did reference the federal government you know "we're going to work with the federal government and local sheriffs I'm in contact with the local sheriffs and the federal government," but we don't know what that actually means right now.

(John) And we see like mission creep in that especially government when they say that they want to combat fentanyl want to combat drug smuggling or human smuggling then it often goes into immigration as well so more coordination with the state or local officials may also then leak into actually uh you know targeting immigrants rather than just drug smuggling.

- We saw that with 314 too right I mean when there was the issue of whether it was going to be on the ballot or not it did end up kind of like this massive bill that squished in fentanyl as well as this very explicit immigration focused uh, element.

- Sometimes things are coincidental in politics not very often and right after the election both Hobbs and Mayes shifted to you know trying to position themselves as looking very tough on crime they immediately pretty much immediately said "yes we're going to start uh you know having executions again in Arizona" something that they had uh essentially you know very much slow walked if not actively worked to halt that's a pretty big shift.

- Yeah it is interesting because I mean this uh the operation uses $28 million from the border fund of the states and if you remember when Hobbs first came into office she was very critical of the Border Strike Force as was you know has where many you know local leaders within Arizona because it was criticized for you know doing operations far away from the border having often nothing to do with you know "drug interdiction at the border" quote unquote um so it is interesting to kind of see like how this has gone sort of full circle because there are definitely a lot of parallels to the border strike force and operation safe and even or I'm sorry task force safe and even this most recent operation.

(Dylan) For sure keep this low.. - Yeah, just border fill in the blank, fill in the blank.

- Hannah let's uh move to a topic that something that occurred not far from where we're sitting right now in response to a missive from the U.S. Department of Education the U of A had taken down certain DEI related websites President Garamiella also said the university was conducting an inventory of DEI programs now there is a letter more than 2,000 people have signed it alumni, students, faculty, and then there's there was a protest as well that I know you covered.

What's the vibe on campus how are people feeling about this?

- Yeah so this week we really saw the reactions from the actions that the university took last week which was a softening of language related to diversity equity and inclusion in the land acknowledgement and also two websites the office of diversity and inclusion was taken down um, so you know, the campus is starting to organize um, I talked to several faculty this week that are worried that this removal of language is honestly just the first step towards a slippery slope of they're worried about leading to censorship and you know even touching on what can be taught in classrooms, um, a lot of the students that I'm talking to are worried about their cultural centers disappearing because these are centers where they go for support I talked to one member of an African-American fraternity and said the Martin Luther King Jr. Center on campus is a place where his fraternity um is housed.

Um, so yeah it's it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out at the federal and state level because they are under threat.

(Steve) You had at least one quote in the story related to someone saying well yes we know what the federal Department of Education has said but what's the hurry why did U of A have to jump on this so quickly?

Someone and I can't remember who said that but that was pretty interesting as well I thought.

- Yeah the Department of Education sent out a memo that basically said universities that receive federal funding have two weeks to basically stop DEIA related programming and activities.

(Steve) And that date is today right February 28th yeah okay.

- And the university's response they haven't given specifics on what programs, activities are specifically at risk of disappearing so it's going to be a wait and see.

(Steve) And Dylan it feels like U of A obviously is not alone in this a lot of universities are going to have to make this call but the fact that Tucson is such a diverse community one would think it's going to hit this area harder in some ways even emotionally I would suppose?

- Certainly that, you know the U of A is kind of caught in the middle of this you know so much of the funding for the university comes from the federal government they're you know they're very very expensive research programs that are dependent on federal support and would not exist you know large chunks of the university would shut down if the feds stop paying for it.

So they're kind of forced in this position of going along with eliminating some programs we've heard from some folks who are being told in those cultural resource centers that they are in fact being laid off and those places are shutting down and those are centers that where you know they help students who might not feel entirely comfortable with a mainstream you know ordinary college experience you know give them some place to belong and help them succeed.

- Yeah, John how significant is a protest like this I mean certainly universities are places of protest how seriously even if the university is faced with Trump administration policies how seriously does the administration here meaning President Garimella's administration have to take this?

- Well I mean I think what we're seeing the university doing and a lot of other local institutions I mean in places all across the country right now are trying to thread the needle between standing up against what they maybe see as the excesses or the promised excesses of the Trump administration so they don't get funding cut and you know trying to do what they like live up to their ideals and what we see with this protest is that I think students are seeing that the university isn't taking a strong enough stance to make them feel comfortable to make them feel protected and safe on campus.

So I don't know how far it's going to go I think it's also worth noting that there have been executive orders actually targeting student protesters and so I think that people are putting themselves on the line and people are willing to stand up for you know what they what what the ideals that they believe in and they're they're asking with this protest for the university to do the same and the university is having to play politics with it.

- Yeah Alisa how intense do you think this could get on campus I mean just when something like this happens because you're going to have as I said this is supposed to be a place of learning place of free speech and yet the Trump administration wants to put a chilling effect on that so that puts as John said threading the needle is a real challenge for for folks on this campus?

- Yeah I mean I think on this campus and others thinking you know the what almost 70 protesters that are arrested at ASU last year you know we have seen large-scale protests or encampments across the country you know in the last year and a half.

And I think that well I guess in the last year so I think you know if we want to see what's going to happen with responses we don't have to look that far to understand that I think administrations, even college administrations even before the federal and the president's the presidential administration that we're in right now you know do respond, can respond, pretty harshly to protesters and I think it kind of depends on you know what happens but there was tear gas and rubber bullets used just what last summer on U of A's campus during an encampment, a pro-Palestinian encampment on campus so I think that you know and again almost 70 protesters were arrested in there at ASU that are still undergoing I believe a legal process up there right now.

So I think yeah we just we don't have to look too far, but in terms of threading the needle I think that it's not obviously it's not only universities anybody that uses public funding in any way is kind of making this calculus right now I think you know it wasn't too long ago that Pima County leaders at the Supervisors meeting were discussing the same exact thing like, "hey how much of our budget is tied up in federal funding federal grants what are we going to be, how are we going to be responding to this what what what are the sort of updates that we need to know" and I think that the big thing is people don't know right now, but they do know that a lot of money is under threat and so yeah I think there's some worry about how to respond yeah there's - Yeah there's a lot of scary uncertainty out there, um, one person Dylan that I think some people who are in Southern Arizona and progressive Democrats were hoping at some point even though this is final term could stand up and fight a little bit is Congressman Grijalva, but he as we know is fighting lung cancer, been very difficult, and he's facing a lot of criticism now to-to step down, because it's a time where suddenly a progressive area like this, but generally people need more voices to fight against the Trump administration.

And even a columnist with the Tucson Sentinel is saying "you should resign you're great and everything but you've sort of um it's time."

-Yeah our 'What The Devil Won't Tell You' columnist Blake Morlock uh, last night uh, we published his column saying you know it's time to not even think about it it's time to actually do it and you know he says Raul Grijalva should indeed step down.

"Thank you for your service," you know, you Grijalva's been in office since, in one office or another, since 1974 he's got a very long impactful career whether you agree with him or not, you know everybody has to recognize he's had you know a a serious impact on Tucson and southern Arizona.

But he, Blake's contention is he can't do the job anymore his job is to show up in Congress and vote and he has not been able to do that since just after Valentine's Day a year ago, he's missed more than 500 roll call votes in Congress.

(Steve) And one of Blake's lines that really stood out to me is, I can't remember exactly what years he mentioned, but this is not 2005 this is not 2015 this is a time when people really need a progressive voice like that.

- Well there was the you know we've saw rather dramatically uh just this week the budget bill in the House the outline for how they're going to go back and figure out where to cut, you know where to cut taxes, where to cut spending, uh where to increase the deficit, but that's another matter.

Uh, you know that bill passed by just two votes.

There was one Republican who voted you know against Trump, uh, Thomas Massey who has concerns about the deficit and that's why he voted against it.

Uh all of the Democrats voted against it except for one who was not there, the only person in Congress who did not show up to the cast of vote on that was Raul Grijalva.

He's put in that position because the GOP took away the ability to vote by proxy that the Democrats had put in place during the pandemic, and uh, we've seen a couple of uh sketchy at least one sketchy incidents in recent days by a Republican whose vote was cast even though he was apparently in Los Angeles so somebody's you know voting by proxy, but uh certainly a Democrat's not going to be able to get away with that.

- John without piling on too much it seems to make sense this is this is the time especially when Democrats really need that other voice?

- I mean I think that you know after 50 years of service public service there are a number of people sort of waiting uh on deck and and sort of maybe even chomping at the bit, I'll line up here locally I mean we're in a moment of great uncertainty as you're saying and there are a number of issues specific to this region that are, uh, you know really pressing.

Um, border security federal funding for for local uh different institutions.

And to have someone in in this regions or this community these communities corner i think is really crucial right now, if uh Grijalva can can somehow step back up and do it that would be great, but if not I think a lot of people are ready for new blood - I think that was the you know his-his plan his intention, you know his hope was that he would be able to get back to work very soon and that's why this has kind of dragged out over a year.

You know either way uh Southern Arizona is going to be without somebody that that well not southern Arizona but CD-7 that portion of Southern Arizona will not have somebody voting if Grijalva can't show up to vote and he does indeed resign, the earliest a new member of Congress could be sworn in would be at this point the second week of September.

Because it's a special election exactly so he has a special primary first and then a special election and that process you know takes months.

-Yeah, Alisa let me get your brief thoughts on this the fact that Grijalva is had this huge history but it almost feels like new blood is really needed right now.

- Yeah I mean he has already said that you know this is going to be his last year in Congress, but those are facts that are hard to ignore the fact that you know with the sole vote that was not present especially because we're dealing with a lot of a lot of shifting politics in DC and also you know here in Arizona to some respect that uh do require that progressive voice um if you know if it's there and it's not able to be heard then it doesn't have a it's not going to be um all that helpful.

It also brings to mind that you know Grijalva was maybe one of the first members of Congress to uh call on Biden to pull out of the race um you know after that uh, after the um, (Steve) Debate.

- The debate, yeah so I think you know um we it's it's tough though given that you know September is the very earliest it feels like we're kind of between a rock and a hard place right now with uh getting those kinds of voices out there.

- I think I said new blood first um it's maybe worth pointing out that one of the people probably on deck, um to potentially replace him would be his daughter so not exactly new blood.

(Steve) Interesting y yeah let's spend the last several minutes of the program we're going to focus on reporting that Hannah and John have done on mental health care in the Pima County Jail and I mean so much it's on AZPM it was the latest edition of The Buzz webs The Buzz podcast from last week, I know you've been even more reporting on this John, but I have the two of you really talk a lot about this.

John let me ask you first the the story focuses on Pat Grenier, um intensely gets into his life what's happened to him.

How did you first come to to find him or come across him?

- Yeah so uh it started with an Instagram post that his daughter uh Brianna who we quote extensively in the article and on the podcast um she put on Instagram, uh sort of lamenting and letting people know that her father had just turned 70 years old while in the Pima County Jail he was in a program called Restoration to Competency and I think that you know we reached out to her and tried to like set up some interviews some initial interviews, and I think one of the things that really struck us and let us know that this was quite the big story was she was facing, and we soon started facing, that the systems are so opaque and so convoluted and they grind people up and they were grinding up her dad and and he was really suffering in this cycle of being arrested, having a mental health crisis, being stuck in the jail, being let out, not showing up for court, coming back.

And he wasn't receiving the services that that he desperately needed and so what we try to do is is paint a portrait of really how complex the system is, and um, you know try to follow the family as they attempt to navigate it, at great cost both emotional and financial.

- Yeah Hannah what really struck me is it's about what happens in the Pima County Jail and yet so much of the great reporting the two of you did, has to do with how he got there in the first place and you know why wasn't he in a mental health care facility instead of the Pima County Jail?

- Yeah the failure to appear in court cycle is something we get really deep in the piece and so basically, that starts when you're charged with a misdemeanor you're told to appear in court, and another important piece is that Pat's house was condemned, so he was unable to receive mail which means court notices to show up at this day at this time.

So he also was suffering with from a form of schizophrenia so he doesn't really have the same capacity for planning an organization so all these factors culminate in a certain point and when the police are called it's up to that officer's discretion to whether he's taken to mental health, and that's how Pat ended up in the jail, and we explore how that cycle is widespread in the community and its impact in a lot of people.

- Yeah you mentioned restorative competency where I was trying to squeeze a lot in a short amount of time, let's get in the details of what that is and what it's supposed to do.

-Yeah, so there's there's basically two ways that the program can work, one is outside of jail, but the other one is triggered when someone is is booked and um is in proceedings whether about whether or not they have the competency to stand trial, if they can understand the legal proceedings and if it's deemed that they can't, they're placed in this program Restoration of Competency.

And it's a typically a six-month program it can be a little bit shorter sometimes where they're in jail and the idea is that they will be restored to competency, but as uh you know, the reporting that we've done the reporting I've been doing for years in the jail is that this is really not a place where somebody gets better at all, especially in terms of mental health, and this is something that is not just something that we've seen, but Sheriff Nanos who you know oversees the jail, he himself has said repeatedly that "I should not be running what is basically this this community's largest mental health facility" and yet that's what he's you know forced to do because we don't have service we don't have the capacity regionally, to house people like Pat when they need help.

- Well and Hannah when you have someone like Pat who's dealing with what he's dealing with and as John says this is not really the place to restore competency or whatever it is.

Um that is such a huge impact on his family and as John mentioned you spoke extensively to his daughter I mean that just must be crushing to find out what it's doing to her and even I guess the brother-in-law is also featured right?

Yeah.

- Yeah correct I mean I think caregiving to this level is not widely understood until it touches someone in your own family, or a close friend.

Um you really are forced to become an advocate for someone to navigate systems that are sometimes it feels like purposefully complicated.

Um a story that I'll tell briefly is the brother-in-law James shared with me was, they figured out that some bills were going to collections and they couldn't figure out why, so Tucson Medical Center told him that his insurance was canceled but they couldn't tell him why so to answer that question he had to go through the Arizona State Retirement Service, United Healthcare, and then they directed him to Social Security, so that's four bureaucracies that you have to navigate on your own, on behalf of someone who can't for themselves, and that's I'm sure that took two weeks of their life to figure out why these two bills haven't been paid.

- Meanwhile they're being tortured mentally and emotionally.

- Yeah right.

- John wrap this up to some extent where where's Pat now is he still in behind bars in essence?

-So, um Pat now has finally been able to get a little bit more care but the family is still struggling to pay the bills, to back pay some bills, and to make sure that he is in a safe place.

He's in a skilled nursing facility, currently, he was not able to get back into his home, but they are still very worried about him that he could have another run-in and if he has another run-in with the police the system has it set up so that he will probably end up back in jail.

So it's very much not resolved I think he's he's been able to stabilize a little bit, but we've seen this cycle take him different places in in the very recent past, so they're really just hoping that he doesn't end up back in in the jail right now.

- Okay well there's more to come on that subject as well so uh we'll be following that so, John Washington great work Arizona Luminaria, thank you, very much Hannah Cree thank you very much, AZPM, Alisa Reznick KJZZ, Dylan Smith of the Tucson Sentinel, thank you all for great reporting and a great conversation.

And thank you very much for watching this edition of The Press Room, I'm Steve Goldstein.

Back with another edition coming up next week enjoy the rest of your evening.