Announcer> A production of the South Carolina Educational Television Network.

♪ ♪ Sally> Coming up tonight on Carolina Journal , the legacy of Dr.

Martin Luther King lives on.

Tonight, we'll talk about his fight for civil rights and the federal holiday commemorating his life.

All this tonight on Carolina Journal .

Good evening, and welcome to Carolina Journal.

I'm Sally Jeter, along with Sheila Johnson-Chaney.

23 years ago, the words of Dr.

Martin Luther King Jr.

echoed around the world.

On August 28th, Dr.

King spoke to a crowd of thousands in Washington, D.C.

and talked of freedom for all people.

Today, there are a few of us who can forget his so-called "I Have a Dream" speech.

There are a few of us who can forget his diligent fight for civil rights.

On April 4th, 1968, Martin Luther King was gunned down in Memphis, Tennessee.

His death touched a nerve in this nation that triggered a greater awareness of the injustices of racism.

18 years after his death, the legacy of Dr.

King lives on.

Today, Americans are celebrating the first federal holiday honoring Dr.

Martin Luther King.

Angela Coxton has more on this story.

Angela> This story is best told through the faces of those who attended today's ceremony.

Joy and celebration, but also pain were etched in the eyes of the old and young.

Many affirmations and "amens" echoed from the crowd as speakers paid tribute to the great Black activist Martin Luther King Jr.

But irony also loomed over this event as the Confederate flag, a symbol of slavery, waved high above the crowd.

> We continue to see color in America.

We continue to see it in jobs and housings and every day walks of life.

We know it's wrong.

We know we can do better.

Angela> It was 23 years ago that King delivered his famous speech, "I Have a Dream."

NAACP President William Gibson says that dream is being deferred.

> What concerns me.

What causes me great consternation for you degreed folk out there.

Is that the words of that impassioned speech will go in one ear and out the other.

It was a West Columbia minister, Reverend Charles Jackson that seemed to move the crowd the most.

The theme of his speech being "all is not well."

Rev.

Jackson> Let us live the dream until every, every rough place is made clean and every crooked place made straight up.

Let us live the dream until the glory of the Lord is revealed together.

Then and only then shall we be able to join hearts and hands together, in the singing of the old Negro spiritual Free at last!

Free at last!

Thank God Almighty!

We are free at last!

(crowd cheering) Sheila> And joining us to talk about Dr.

King and the current state of civil rights for Black Americans are Reverend Winston Lawson, the pastor of Ladson Presbyterian Church, Redfern II, a newspaper publisher and longtime civil rights activist, and Dr.

Grace McFadden, Associate Professor of History at the University of South Carolina.

Thank you all for joining us this evening.

I want to start talking about that rally that we just saw.

The hopefulness and unity that was displayed were very impressive.

But I'd like to know whether you think commemorations of Dr.

King's birthday will, be long lasting?

Whether this kind of celebration will wane?

> I hope it won't wane.

I think it is a significant beginning.

I think it's a landmark occasion for all kinds of reasons, which I'm sure will go into as we move forward here.

Sally> Not many Whites there today.

Do you think that's because Whites cannot appreciate, Dr.

Martin Luther King in the same way that Blacks can?

Rev.

Lawson> I looked around, and if there is one significant lasting, impression that I had was the absence of Whites.

I was very distressed about that.

I had hoped that we had, 20 or so years later, come into a new reality.

That a new day had dawned.

But I was very disappointed at the attendance today of my White brothers and sisters.

Sally> Redfern, Dr.

McFadden does the same sort of chord strike you?

> Well, I think this is the first truly... national holiday.

I think it's significant that the birthdays of Washington or, and Lincoln are celebrated.

But I think, from a historical point of view, Washington was a slave holder.

Lincoln, was committed to preserving the Union, but he was not truly in favor of equality in the sense that we see it.

But I think that what, Dr.

King's birthday does is that it symbolizes the quest to make the ideals of American democracy operative, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all people.

And I think what, what is important here, then, is that all people need to recognize it for that reason.

And see it was Black and Whites who, dislodged the binds, the bounds of segregation.

It wasn't Black people by ourselves.

But I think there has to be a commitment, a true commitment to his ideals, not him, per se.

Because I don't think we should just recognize King, but people symbolize those ideas.

But I think there has to be a commitment from the top.

And when those at the top, and I feel from a national perspective, bring the nation together to symbolize and to preserve and to honor this.

Well then it can be.

I was very frustrated that the university opened for classes, today, on Martin Luther King's birthday.

Sheila> What about you, Redfern?

> Well, I was not surprised.

Was not disappointed because South Carolinians basically are not hypocritical.

Whites in South Carolina have not accepted the legacy of Dr.

King.

When we look at the city of Columbia and on the corner right across from the capital is a 45 million dollar building going up.

And blacks are not participating in the economic development of the city.

When we look at the Marriott Hotel and the Palmetto Center, HUD money that was granted to the city because of the work that Dr.

King did, and we did not get an opportunity to participate.

You look at the 145 million dollar development of the Congaree Vista, and there is no Black participation.

And economically, Blacks in the city of Columbia are being forced out.

There's inadequate housing there's substandard housing, and then there's housing that Blacks cannot afford.

So Dr.

King's work is still to be done.

And we have seen all of the politicians with the power that was there today, in our Senator and our Governor in the, Governors to be, there could be a change in economic development of the community.

But what we saw was the hypocrisy from politicians and governmental leaders.

And I think that was good, that they did not come.

Because they did not participate in hypocrisy.

Think it was good that the flag was still where it is, so that we can have a clear understanding that there is much work to be done.

I also think that legislating change is good, but Dr.

King sought to make changes in men's hearts and we have not seen that change yet in South Carolina.

Is there hope?

Yes, there is plenty of hope for the future in both communities.

I think, the mere fact that the White community did say that this man was great enough to stop the entire nation and pay a tribute that they do have respect for him and the people behind him.

But the reality of the day still lingers on.

Sally> Martin Luther King talked a lot about a colorblind society.

Do you think that's realistic?

You said there's hope.

How far are we from that?

Redfern> You know, I don't think there's but one color in America.

This is a capitalistic society.

Everything is based on your ability to be free and how much capital you have.

Capital determines freedom.

We have to be able to participate fully.

I think Martin Luther King's life and family is a good example of what we need to achieve.

All of his children are educated, all of them are participating in society.

And what we need to do is take that from a small group of people in the Black community and spread that opportunity so that all people can participate and have space to maintain their individuality.

Presently, we do not own the space to maintain our own ethnic identity.

Sally> Reverend Lawson, you had some thoughts.

Rev.

Lawson> While those are obviously true.

The economic dilemma is obviously very apparent to us.

I want to go back to the, to the absence of Whites because a few months ago, we stood on those very steps of the capital, and we had a rally to demonstrate our solidarity with South Africa.

And the struggling people of South Africa who want their freedom and who are demanding it in no uncertain terms.

I had hoped, and I still continue to hope, that... because as a church person and as, one who thinks theologically and speaks in that kind of a category, that one of these days we are going to live what we talk about.

And that the kind of community that King envisioned is going to become a reality.

And it's going to begin with the example being modeled by the church.

And that is where my disappointment comes.

When I participate in a lie, myself as a church leader, calling people to be brothers and sisters together and envisioning some kind of a demonstration of the coming Kingdom of God, where we will all be one together as children of God.

And then when we do not see the importance of demonstrating that here and now, today, to me, I'm very frustrated, I'm very disappointed.

And I want to confess to those who do not belong to Christianity that we are traitors when we live the way in the kind of estranged, alienated, and antagonistic fashion that is represented in, in our kind of gathering today.

Sheila> When King was alive, he kept civil rights issues at the forefront of the American family.

They were in the living room every single night.

Now we don't see civil unrest in a, on the same scale that we did when King was alive.

Do you think that the American people are thinking that maybe it's okay, everything's a lot better for Black Americans?

Rev.

Lawson> Well, some people obviously agree with that from the mere fact that we re-elected a President, an acting President like the one we have in Washington today.

But it is very obvious to anybody who thinks or who understands what's happening in the real world that everything is not okay.

We only need to look at the fact right here in Columbia that come 11 o'clock every day at Washington Street Methodist Church, the, folks are down there in crowds seeking to get a meal for that day.

At our own church on Saturday mornings and on Sunday mornings, we feed, all kinds of numbers of children who have nothing to eat.

And hunger is a reality.

Redfern talked about unemployment and about the kind of housing conditions and the kinds of situations in education or the lack of it in our, in our state.

That is a fact of life in our country.

So anybody who thinks that that things are better and that we are improving the lives and conditions of people in our country, they're living in a fool's paradise.

Sally> Let me ask you this.

How distressed would Martin Luther King Jr.

be if he were alive today?

What kinds of things would he be doing, to change this?

Rev.

Lawson> Probably Grace wants to speak to that.

> I think he would, very much... he would as an individual be frustrated greatly.

I think there's been an awful lot of regression.

I think that history kind of repeats itself.

We're kind of in the 1980s where we were in the, in the 1880s, where a real nadir a real period of depression has set in among those people who were at the forefront of civil rights.

King would be, I think, at the forefront of trying to look at issues that relate to poverty.

Issues that relate to South Africa.

He would be very much, because he said the struggle was not just a struggle on one's own turf, but we have to extend it, to look at issues elsewhere.

The unemployment problem, the decline, for example, in, in educational opportunities for Black youth and for impoverished youth.

Yes, there have been gains within the past decade or so.

But I think there has been a real, period of regression.

And I think one of the real problems, is that there has been a conservatism that has eroded the society, I don't mind fiscal conservatism.

But the religious conservatism, when... the ills of people are put on a back burner and everything is justified in the name of God.

The fundamentalist crusade, and now it's vogue for young people to link with that, rather than to link with issues that relate to social justice and to human rights.

And I think that's one of the real dilemmas of this society.

Rather than solving issues, we seem to let them slip under and go into a... period of decline and neglect.

And then there has to be some real, catastrophe for us as a nation to come forth again, to try to just to resolve them.

Sally> You almost have to wonder how far we've progressed when you look at the churches, how often do you see Blacks and Whites congregating together?

Redfern> I guess, I want to take this opportunity to almost disagree.

But to go a step further, I don't think he would be so disappointed as he would accept the challenge of what needs to be done.

The brother talked about South Africa.

I think he would see the need that University of South Carolina not only is investing in South Africa, but we have Blacks and Whites who do care.

That he would call on them in their respective places and positions to impact change.

He would see that because of his work, that we have people in the educational system who have a commitment to something good.

I think he'd have more soldiers and troops to call on and more places of responsibility to get the job done.

I also think he would see in this President that we have Ronald Reagan, a man and a human being, that he could approach him.

Mere fact that Ronald Reagan, President of the United States, signed the bill means that there is some good in him.

There is something that he could do.

We need a Martin Luther King right now, not to appeal to the evilness in men, but to appeal to the good.

I think in everyone there is some good.

The unique quality that he had, he could go to a Bull Connor as mean and as evil as he was, and still try to bring out some good in him.

Martin Luther King brought out good in Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X, and all of us young people who rallied in other causes.

Martin Luther King was bigger and greater, and he could pull all of our energies in and make us a lot better of a person.

There were some people who were not followers of King, 20 years ago.

They were more Middleton, but they were needed.

And Martin Luther King represented a hope for them.

Sheila> Well, we don't have a King right now.

What's the answer?

Redfern> I think we do.

I don't know whether he's in a little community in Arthurtown organizing and working.

I don't know whether he's in Oregon, in a community working.

I just think that the, the attention of the nation is focusing in on other things.

But Martin Luther King is alive and well.

He's in schools teaching, he's in banks communicating, he's in small communities in Frogmore and Beaufort.

He has not come together in all of these places, but I believe he's alive and well and working to help people.

I think Martin Luther King exists in these two people that are next to me.

That the work goes on, and then the movement and tide and all the unison will come up and someone will manifest all of this.

Rosa Parks with Martin Luther King.

Ralph Abernathy with Martin Luther King.

And I think we are trying to continue that work.

So he is alive and well, and I think he's communicating.

Rev.

Lawson> But let's be realistic.

Martin Luther King is alive, we believe, in so far as we exercise the same kind of a political muscle, in so far as we do the same kinds of things with the same kind of a strategic significance as he did, and was as effective then as we might be today.

If he hadn't been the kind of effective politician that he was, he would never have been able to accomplish the things that he did.

If he didn't have Malcolm X... as the one over against him about whom this country was in constant fear, he would never have been able to accomplish the things that he did, you know.

And I think that we need to be very realistic and recognize that Reagan didn't sign the bill to make this a public holiday just because he wanted it to be that way, necessarily.

I confess that, Reagan is a member of the Presbyterian Church, and I'm ashamed of what he does as a Presbyterian minister.

Constantly ashamed of him in so far as he reverses the gains that we have achieved and the things that King stood for, affirmative action that are so centrally, Christian.

I'm ashamed of him, and I want to get rid of him out of that white House.

Sally> I've got a quick question.

In the last year in South Carolina, the KKK has grown.

And why haven't we seen more outrage from the Black and White community alike?

They've marched.

They've let themselves be heard.

> I think it's more if you ignore, those kind of, in a way if you ignore, organizations and movements that are... what I perceive as sick, have a sick mentality in reference to human progress- Sally> That they'll go away.

Dr.

McFadden> Well, not necessarily that they'll go away, but there will be less attention focused on them.

And perhaps they won't be as vocal or won't gain the kind of support that they should.

I'd like to say something, however, in reference to King's holiday or to this, this holiday commemorating the, the birth of Martin Luther King.

I hope that people in this nation will not just recognize King.

And will not only learn all they can about Martin Luther King Jr.

Because there were literally hundreds of thousands of people who made what happened in this society work.

And it worked in the South because of King.

It would not have worked in the North or in the West or in the Midwest, not because of King, but because of the nature of the South.

But we can't forget Rosa Parks or Dr.

Benjamin Mays, who inspired King to greatness.

Rosa Parks, who gave him the opportunity truly to preach and practice his nonviolence.

And he was a spokesperson for a crusade.

He was really not the... the mass movement... you know, there were the people, young and old who, who were at the vanguard of that struggle.

So we need to understand that.

Sheila> We're going to have to interrupt this wonderful conversation and maybe pick it up at a, at a different time.

Reverend Lawson, Redfern Dr.

McFadden, thank you for being with us this evening.

Coming up on Carolina Journal , if you're a duck hunter, your sport may be in jeopardy.

We'll tell you why in just a moment.

♪ ♪ Last week marked the end of duck hunting season in South Carolina.

A season by some accounts, it may not have been the best.

According to the South Carolina Wildlife Department, the waterfowl population is fast decreasing.

Join John Evans, who has more.

> Today we're on the Santee Delta, prime waterfowl habitat.

Good duck hunting.

You know, a duck hunters a strange breed of person goes through all kinds of monetary and physical deprivation.

Alienates himself from his wife, his children.

Loses his home because his money priorities going to the wrong directions.

Really, one of the only friends he has during the waterfowling season is his ever trusty dog.

Science, and all of its endeavor to improve the world has never been able to improve the comforts of a duck blind.

It's still cold, windy, icy, out on these marshes.

As that duck hunter with numb, frostbitten fingers raises a duck call to his chapped and cracked lips and tries to call a flock of ducks within his range.

It's torture.

Why does a duck hunter do this?

It's like mountain climbing.

You ask a mountain climber why does he climb a mountain?

And his answer is, "because it's there."

But is duck hunting still, here?

With me on the Delta today is Tommy Strange, who is the Chief Waterfowl Biologist with the Wildlife Department.

And Tommy, I guess the question is... it's here, but is it here like it used to be?

Tommy> No, John, duck hunting as we knew it 15 years ago or when I was a kid is... It's not the same as it was.

It's... waterfowl populations are at the lowest they've ever been recorded, this year.

John> What are the problems?

I mean, why are we having a depreciation in the waterfowl population?

Tommy> The major reason is the, loss of habitat in the Canadian breeding grounds in the Southern Prairie provinces of Canada.

And the Northern Prairies of the United States.

There's been a five year drought, and, the, potholes have dried up.

When these potholes dried up, the... wheat farmers were able to cultivate down into the pothole and even in some instances, fill a pothole.

So this habitat is lost and it's lost forever.

So this, this is one of the major problems is the loss of breeding habitat.

John> Well, Tommy, in the Canadian breeding grounds the problems exist.

What about the waterfowl population as it leaves the breeding grounds of Canada, flying south, down the Atlantic Flyway?

Do the problems continue as they come south?

Tommy> Well, John, as when the waterfowl populations reached the low levels that they have reached, we start looking at all mortality factors.

Factors that might not be important at times of high populations become much more important now.

As everyone knows, the, bag limit and the season length were shortened this year by 25 percent.

This, this is trying to address the hunting mortality.

There are other mortality factors that we have to look at, such as, losses to lead poisoning, losses to disease, accidental losses.

This is probably the one that we cannot do anything about, but... lead poisoning, and disease problems can be addressed.

John> Tommy, lead versus steel shot, that's been controversial.

At one time we went to steel shot in certain areas, and then, now we're back to lead shot.

What is the situation?

What can be done?

Tommy> Well, John, the steel shot program as you mentioned, was dropped several years ago.

Three years ago, I believe.

But now, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the U.S.

Fish and Wildlife Service is mandating that all areas in the United States that have a... occurrence of shot in the gizzards of waterfowl of 5 percent or greater, monitor these areas to determine what the rate of ingestion is.

That is, how many shot are these birds picking up?

And it's a well documented fact that if they pick up one lead pellet that it can kill them and usually does in most instances.

So... we're presently monitoring nine counties in South Carolina to determine what the rate of ingestion of shot is in waterfowl.

And if these... if the rate exceeds 5 percent, then we most likely will go to, go back to steel shot and ban lead in these counties.

Probably... no sooner than 1987 and no later than 1990.

John> But Tommy, doesn't it really depend on contiguous action with other states.

Won't they have to also do the same thing for it to work?

Tommy> Yes, this is correct.

It's being done in... all across North America.

Everywhere that there are large concentrations of waterfowl.

They're being monitored to determine what the shot ingestion rate is.

And the main criteria that they're looking at is the harvest per square mile in the county.

John> Tommy, as a boy on this Santee Delta, I did frequent this Delta often as a child because I am from low... country.

These skies used to be black, black, black with duck and geese.

How is it, what are we going to have to do to get that condition back again?

Tommy> Well, Johnny, I don't know that we'll ever... that we will ever, attain those population numbers again.

But... the key, I think, to success lies in two areas, and that is habitat management and the breeding grounds and, regulations.

You know, we just we can't continue to have high harvest when the birds are at low population levels.

John> So one of the solutions to all of these problems is strictly long range.

Tommy> Yes.

There are no immediate solutions.

You can have, you could have a hurricane in the, Prairie provinces of Canada and drop two feet of rain.

And the birds are not going to recover in one year.

It took, five years of drought for them to reach the low levels where they are now, and it's going to take several years for them to recover.

If they do recover.

John> Tommy Strange.

Thank you, Tommy.

Duck hunters and mountain climbers.

For the mountain climbers, they do it because it's there.

Duck hunters do it because it's here.

But is it always going to be here?

Will it ever be like it was?

Our department, Tommy Strange, and the other biologists are continually working to see that the waterfowl population does not decrease any more, and that they will increase.

There's one program we have going that has increased the native population of wood ducks.

That's the "Wood Duck Program," the "Wood Duck Box Program."

And on our next outing we'll talk about that and show the successes of it.

This is John Evans for Carolina Journal .

Sally> That's our show, for tonight.

Thanks for watching.

Have a nice Monday evening.

Good night.